Just had a look through the 8th ed book to see how it will effect us the other day: Noticed something a bit, dunno if anyone can clarify>
It appears that pikes now fight in 4 ranks even if they move: the "only fighting in one rank" rule appears to no longer be a generic rule for any "fight in x ranks " weapon, but a specific rule for spears. And therefore doesnt affect pikes.
Anyone able to confirm this? a bonus or a nerf? I spose it makes it more attractive to get the charge now: all ranks fight anyway and we et +1 combat res for it....
Doesn't it say that they don't get to fight in four ranks on the charge/flank/rear in the Dogs Of War army list? I don't have the list to hand right now so I don't know, but I thought it did, in which case things shouldn't have changed...
Pretty sure in my copy at least it says they simply fight in 4 ranks...doesnt need to be any more detailed than that cos 7th had a general rule for any weapons that fight in X ranks.
Ive just checked and it appears your right. Its unfair, underpriced and defies physics, but pikes can, for the time being, fight in four ranks constantly.
Sweet!
Going over the new rules with horde ands all I think they may be able to fight with up to 6 ranks -- if you are 10 wide.
Will have to confirm but I am pretty sure about it.
Right again (I think, my access to the new rule book is touch and go atm). My god, I hate pikes...
(06-21-2010 10:44 AM)tarastop Wrote: [ -> ]Going over the new rules with horde ands all I think they may be able to fight with up to 6 ranks -- if you are 10 wide.
So you field 60 Pikemen for 600 pts?
Mmkay... 200mm frontage is enough for 3 Bret Lances to simul-charge (1 dead center, 2 corner charges)... Who wins???
If we do fight in 6 ranks we could even use Pirazzos Lost Legion. 60 of them is only 25pts more expensive than 60 normal Pikemen and we do get a captain + a front rank of crossbowmen.
We do lose the shooting if we want to move the block. Multiple charges can be avoided by shielding them.
It can be a menacing block to face. Especially with always strike first even when charging with all those pikes.
Just want to find a good use for all my Pikemen. They're so lovely
.
Heck, yer right.
The pikes only have any kind of sucess when fielded in large units. Yes, it might sound stupid, but my 32 pals unit have done well lately. Try to use them like a Phalanx formation. You'll shatter any smaller 'maniples' coming in your front - historically speaking.
And it works. The problem is - you can't get a huge block liek those walking around the place - you'll need some flank-shields - Norse, Paymaster's Bodyguards... Light Cavalry with spears or Heavy with lances.
(06-21-2010 02:48 PM)JohnHwangDW Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2010 10:44 AM)tarastop Wrote: [ -> ]Going over the new rules with horde ands all I think they may be able to fight with up to 6 ranks -- if you are 10 wide.
So you field 60 Pikemen for 600 pts?
Mmkay... 200mm frontage is enough for 3 Bret Lances to simul-charge (1 dead center, 2 corner charges)... Who wins???
The answer is the Brets, by 3 - presuming equal points you've got a lance of 9, a lance of 6 and a lance of 8 (each lance has full command) to go against the 60 pikemen with full command.
The pikes will do seven wounds to the three lances before the Brets go, while the knights will do close to eight wounds and the ponies will add 2 more.
Given the static res of each side - the Brets should win by three. And unless Borgio is hanging around nearby with a paymaster the large pike block is likely running.
Of course, you should be able to set up some units out in front to redirect the freight train that is the three lance formation, but given the points at play here you may be stretched to do so, or not have an optimal unit to do so. Ov course one of those Bret lances may have failed their fear test (statistically one should) to charge your pike block, which could increase your odds immeasurably.
Again, I wouldn't field them in one unit of 60 - but perhaps 2 of 30 each, so they are a little bit more mobile.
And about screening - that's what the pistol-bearing duellists are for. On a stand and shoot they might fell one - if Tzeentch is in your side, 2 or even 3!! knights.
Lances are also very - VERY vulnerable to cannon fire. One clear shoot might get an entire rank killed. I'll test this tactic once my new pikemen arrive...
yeah, the challenge: finding an opponent who'll let you do any of this. 61 attacks the first round of close combat? good luck.
(06-22-2010 08:47 AM)Border Reiver Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2010 02:48 PM)JohnHwangDW Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2010 10:44 AM)tarastop Wrote: [ -> ]Going over the new rules with horde ands all I think they may be able to fight with up to 6 ranks -- if you are 10 wide.
So you field 60 Pikemen for 600 pts?
Mmkay... 200mm frontage is enough for 3 Bret Lances to simul-charge (1 dead center, 2 corner charges)... Who wins???
The answer is the Brets, by 3 - presuming equal points you've got a lance of 9, a lance of 6 and a lance of 8 (each lance has full command) to go against the 60 pikemen with full command.
The pikes will do seven wounds to the three lances before the Brets go, while the knights will do close to eight wounds and the ponies will add 2 more.
Given the static res of each side - the Brets should win by three. And unless Borgio is hanging around nearby with a paymaster the large pike block is likely running.
Of course, you should be able to set up some units out in front to redirect the freight train that is the three lance formation, but given the points at play here you may be stretched to do so, or not have an optimal unit to do so. Ov course one of those Bret lances may have failed their fear test (statistically one should) to charge your pike block, which could increase your odds immeasurably.
The 60 pikes don't even do that much... as I think you forgot about the ladies blessing.
60 attacks, half hit = 30 hits
30 hits at strength 4, wounding on 3+ = 20 wounds
2+ armour save -> 3+ armour save = 6.66
6+ ward save = 5.55 kills
However, the Pikemen will be steadfast due to having more ranks than the Brettonians. So stubborn leadership 7, likely with the Paymaster nearby (Who is going to invest in such a large block and then not have all the bonus' they can get nearby), maybe even the General for leadership 8/9.
But given the huge size of the Pikeblock, it isn't so impressive to get 15-20 wounds before armour save from a 600 point block, where every return kill reduces the effectiveness of the Pikemen. I'd much rather the Marauder with Great Weapon horde, which is cheaper to boot as you don't need as many models.
Edit : Also just think about this. 60 Dwarves with great weapons and heavy armour cost the same amount (Although granted, they do come out of special).
Pikes manage about 6.666 dead dwarves (60 attacks, 30 hit, 10 wound, 6.666 after armour). Dwarves turn around and with 30 attacks, 20 hit and 5/6 wound = 16.666 wounds.
I think we see the difference. And this is against a unit which would be core in their actual army. And people think that Dwarves won't make good hordes due to being expensive (true enough).
Basically, Pikes pay points for stuff that is basically irrelevant nowdays. Who cares if you strike first, given that the opponent is going to surge in and get all their attacks anyway (Given bigger is better mentality of 8th, you're not going to see too many MSU 2 rank units).
So i agree with Besieger, if you're going to take Pikes, horde is definately not the way to go. Much better to go with a unit of 30 where you're not paying for extra models that don't give too much benefit.
At least, thanks to the rule change, Pikes are still overpriced but they're not completely useless.
Going to find my 30 Ricco's.
Pikes may be the least threatening horde there is.
Other horde units of comparable cost/model have VASTLY greater killing power/survivability, and the Pikes are still expensive enough to take up a huge part of your army, which means you have less control of the board.
Basically, no one has to engage you if they don't want to, and if they choose to, it will probably be with a unit (or more than one) which is going to shred the poor pikemen.
That being said, I have been thinking about this for awhile. A unit 10 wide to get the horde rule, assuming pikes can make use of all the rule changes, will need to be 2+3+1 ranks deep (so 60) and everyone will get to fight, which means you will need to have a rank to absorb casualties (so 70). Now, assuming you have a regular, non-RoR unit, with full command, that's going to be about 800pts.
But let's try and make it usefull! Shocking, I know, but I think it can be accomplished by throwing even more points into the unit.
First, Take Lorenzo Lupo, the Dogs of War special Character, who will add his I6, ignore armour attacks, as well as his +1 to static combat resolution when in the front of a unit, and put him in there. Then, use his special ability to purchase a Magic Standard for the unit worth up to 50pts! We'll say a Warbanner, just to keep things simple.
Want to keep going, throw the Paymaster in there, for another +1 Static CR, as well as the re-roll to break tests and a bit more fighting power, and give him some serious magic armour.
Now, you have a unit with +3 for ranks, +1 for a standard, +1 for a warbanner, +1 for a BSB, +1 for Lupo, for a total of +7 static CR, which has 6 ranks, and will be stubborn on Ld 9, with re-rollable break and psychology checks.
If you are going to try and horde the pikes up, may as well go all the way!
And poof, half your army just got destroyed by a mortar. Which is why elite units make bad hordes.
As you've said, Pikemen just aren't efficient enough to put into a horde formation. It's kinda silly to pay all the extra points for more frontage and ranks just to get an extra rank of attacks. We already have 5 ranks attacking, do you really need 6.
I'll stand by the best way to use Pikemen in 8th is to use them 30 strong, and use the buff spells to help them out.
Elite units are great in large groups, as long as they are TOUGH. Chaos Warriors, Phoenix Guard, and a few other choices are good ones.
Pikes are not a good choice at all. They just aren't, they suck, and the only reason to use them is if you just WANT to.
If I WANT to field them as a horde, that (above) is how I would do it. I probably will proxy it out for one or two big fun games, but not in a serious way.
I personally cant wait to charge someone with my 4 ranks of pike attacks and then getting off the uses leadership instead of strength value to wound spell off on them....madness!
I agree with someone2040. A HUGE unit of pikes is not the way to go.
The advantage of pikes is the extra ranks worth of attack. Doubling the cost of the unit for only 1 more rank is not worth it. We get a massive amount of attacks due to our weapon, so we might as well go for depth to get the stubborn, rather than width to get attacks (which we already get more of than most anyway). Cheaper too.
Now, that's what the Thruthsayer is for.
A 30 men pike block. Get it buffed, pals;
(06-27-2010 10:24 PM)Warlord Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with someone2040. A HUGE unit of pikes is not the way to go.
The advantage of pikes is the extra ranks worth of attack. Doubling the cost of the unit for only 1 more rank is not worth it.
Actually, chances are you would get a significantly higher number of attacks.
Say you have the standard unit of Pikes, 5 wide, and now 5 deep, for everyone to attack. You fight another 5 wide unit and get 25 attacks.
If you make it a horde (10 wide) you are going to need to go 6 deep for maximum attacks, but in addition to that extra rank, there are two additional files (one on each side) now present which are corner to corner with a 5 wide enemy and get to attack as well. That means that 12 more Pikemen on the sides are engaged, plus the 5 on the back, for a total of 17 more attacks, or around 75% more.
You're going to place over 1000 pts into a 7x10 Pike unit?
OK, I play Empire: 3 Mortars (75 ea) & 3 Great Cannon (100 ea) will cost me 225 + 300 = 525 pts, or about 1/5 of my army. Each Great Cannon is good for 7 hits, so that's going to kill 17+ guys (half their PV in one round), takes the block down to 5x10. Each Mortar is good for roughly 20, 15, 10 kills. By the time I finish firing Handguns or Crossbows, half of your army is *gone*!
You still think Pikes are the way to go?
(06-28-2010 07:18 PM)JohnHwangDW Wrote: [ -> ]You still think Pikes are the way to go?
Who are you even talking to? I hope it's not me, since this is what I've said so far.
"Pikes are not a good choice at all. They just aren't, they suck"
"Pikes may be the least threatening horde there is."
And just to be clear, the point-by-point logic is terrible. You can get nearly 7(!) Great cannons for the cost of one High Elf Dragon Lord, for instance, but that cannon heavy army in no way auto wins.
Regardless, to reiterate, Pikes suck, their rules are perfectly fine, the models are 4pts to expensive, and at some point, I will probably proxy a horde of them, just for fun in a huge game.
(06-28-2010 02:17 PM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ] (06-27-2010 10:24 PM)Warlord Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with someone2040. A HUGE unit of pikes is not the way to go.
The advantage of pikes is the extra ranks worth of attack. Doubling the cost of the unit for only 1 more rank is not worth it. We get a massive amount of attacks due to our weapon, so we might as well go for depth to get the stubborn, rather than width to get attacks (which we already get more of than most anyway). Cheaper too
Actually, chances are you would get a significantly higher number of attacks.
Say you have the standard unit of Pikes, 5 wide, and now 5 deep, for everyone to attack. You fight another 5 wide unit and get 25 attacks.
If you make it a horde (10 wide) you are going to need to go 6 deep for maximum attacks, but in addition to that extra rank, there are two additional files (one on each side) now present which are corner to corner with a 5 wide enemy and get to attack as well. That means that 12 more Pikemen on the sides are engaged, plus the 5 on the back, for a total of 17 more attacks, or around 75% more.
But the number of attacks is not of consequence - that was my point.
Furthermore, I was taking the 10 wide suggestion people previously mentioned, because lets be honest, who would really make pikes 12 wide hoping to come up against an enemy horde? How many of these would you really face?
10 wide is hideously expensive, who would spend the extra points to go 12 wide? And the comparison you make should be between 10 wide vs 12 wide, not 5 wide vs 12 wide.
As such, lets assume that people were going 10 wide, because 12 is crazily expensive, easily shot to hell, and most hordes would steer clear. And even then, a horde may very well reform to become 5 wide to hold ranks and stubborn for as long as possible, denying the 'benefit' of going 12 wide in the first place.
12 wide is not feasible, and was not mentioned because going wider than 10 is less and less useful.
The point I was making, is that we already get a lot of attacks, compared to enemies that need to horde to try and get a lot of attacks. The advantage for us, is that we can go deep, rather than wide, and not sacrifice significantly in the amount of attacks we get. Take 2 units of 25 side by side, and get your 50 attacks on a horde unit, and flexibility to do different things.
Compare to a 10 wide 6 deep unit, you instead get 60 attacks, but spend a further 100 pts, loose flexibility of multiple units, for 20% increase in attack potential.
Like I said, take pikes deep, rather than wide, get comparable attacks to a horde unit, and hopefully gain the stubborn.