This post will assume that the following rumours for 8th edition are true:
-All Infantry fight in two ranks, with 1 attack from the second rank, ect
-All Infantry shoot in two ranks
-Models 'Step Up' and fight, regardless of casualties (provided some are left)
-Charging models strike at initiative
-Templates no longer partial
So, considering the above rumours as accurate, where does everyone see the Dogs of War heading in the new edition? Below are some thoughts on units I commonly use.
Where They Stand: Pikes
Personally, although they didn't really need it, I think the final nail has been pounded into the coffin of Pikemen. I realize that a fair number of people are excited, as they see rules giving pikes even more attacks, and think that large, block infantry will be the way of the future, but honestly, they are just done.
Consider that, even though Pikes will still strike before chargers, the average infantry unit doubled it's attacks, and casualties removed do not negate attacks back. With those rules in place, I don't know if there is any reasonable way for Pikemen to compete.
Options:
None, Pikes are even more done than they were before. I did have a theory about the shooting in two ranks, which was using the Lost Legion. The idea was to go significantly heavier on Crossbows than Pikes, for instance with two ten man ranks of crossbows and one ten man rank of pikes. The idea was that the unit would put out significant fire, and still be fairly well guarded against fast cavalry, light flying disruption, and other conventional, quick threats to missile units. The problem? It doesn't work. The entry for Pirazzo and his men states that 'all Crossbowmen must be placed in the first rank'.
Where They Stand: Norse Marauders
Without the ability to strike first on the charge, models armed with Great Weapons will seemingly always be striking last, and with all infantry models fighting in an additional rank, the Norsemen are going to be dropping like flies.
Options:
At first, this might seem to be a big boost for the Flail crew, but actually, I think that Great Weapons are still going to be the way to go. Consider that, even if the enemy wipes out your entire front frank, you still attack back, and with an extra rank yourself! The big change this is going to cause is larger units of Norse. I used to run mine as two ranks of 6 for maximum attacks, with minimum investment, but now will be running at least 3 ranks of 5, probably more like 4.
Where They Stand: Halfling Hot Pot(!)
Honestly, with no partials and a greater chance of larger ranked infantry, as well as even ranked ranged-weapons troopers, a S3 small template that ignores armour may see the greatest single boost of anything in the list!
Options:
Fire!
So that is my rundown of three units and how the above rumoured rules changes will effect them. What about you? Any other ideas on the above, or concepts of future unit performance with regards to the same or different rumours?
I think that Standard Halflings will make a huge comback.
2 ranks of 10 halflings BS 4 that shoot for 130 points (musician) that move through the woods without a problem. Fantastic They will replace Lumpin.
I think you have some good points there. Pikemen do seem to be in bad shape - our crossbowmen got better, as well as the halflings as mentioned.
I don't see why you couldn't use a house rule to decrease the points of pikemen, or just use the indy book prepared on this site. Not like many people here will be playing in official tournaments anyway.
From what I can tell, the objective based battles will work well for our selection of cavalry and diverse troops. It doesn't seem that only core can hold objectives, so it will make more use of our other units, like dwarfs and ogres. And with the army composition changing to percentages, we can field a wider range of units too.
Maybe I was way off, but for a second I was really excited for that larger, crossbow heavy Pirazzo's unit.
The whole thing would cost only around 250pts, numbers 30 in 3x10, puts out 20 crossbow shots a turn, and when charged, and still has a row of pikes, as well as a fighting character. That unit seems more or less immune to fast cavalry charges, as well as anything light, such as fell bats. Not bad at all to guard a flank. Ah well...
(05-28-2010 04:40 PM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe I was way off, but for a second I was really excited for that larger, crossbow heavy Pirazzo's unit.
The whole thing would cost only around 250pts, numbers 30 in 3x10, puts out 20 crossbow shots a turn, and when charged, and still has a row of pikes, as well as a fighting character. That unit seems more or less immune to fast cavalry charges, as well as anything light, such as fell bats. Not bad at all to guard a flank. Ah well...
Stop, hold it, wait a minute. Pirazzo's has only ONE rank of xbowmen being the front rank, all other ranks are filled with Pikemen. It is a regiment of renown so I am afraid that that is period. :-/
There is nothing to be changed on regiments of renown. No adding or removing characters, banners, champs or whatever. They come as they are described.
I am sorry for you, because I can really understand youre exitement.
(05-28-2010 06:48 PM)henerius Wrote: [ -> ]Stop, hold it, wait a minute. Pirazzo's has only ONE rank of xbowmen being the front rank, all other ranks are filled with Pikemen. It is a regiment of renown so I am afraid that that is period. 
Yeah, I know only one rank can be made of crossbowmen, that's why I was disappointed. And you can in fact change regiments of renown by adding models. I could, for instance, have a unit of the Lost Legion that has the 19 crossbowmen I was talking about, and the 10 pikemen, with Pirazzo as well. The thing that stops me is that the crossbowmen have to be in the front rank, so it would be one rank of 20, followed by one rank of 10, which is too bad, because there was ALMOST a use for Pikes.
Personally, I disagree with the Pikemen paragraph. If you deploy in a 'shark's teeth' formation (With small units of 2 or 3 wide in between the bigger blocks of infantry, and an inch or two back from the front) you can chew up most light-to-medium infantry, and if you do break there's always the reserve units to stop persuers and such.
But hey, that's just my humble opinion
I'm not really into Mathammer so if someone wants to do calculations on this, that's be great.
calculations on what? Alright, generally, strength 3 models in this game which are not shooting units have only two roles.
1) Be filler/swarms
2) Mulch up filler/swarms
There are obviously a few that don't fit the above, but it works shockingly well.
In 8th ed, the advantages of Pikes against other infantry are just hammered. Before, Pikes fought in 4 ranks, meaning that you could bring 4x the attacks to an equally sized unit. Now, everyone fights in an additional, so, assuming you still rank up in 4s, your advantage has been cut in half. Additionally, if you do manage to kill anyone coming in, the guy behind them steps up and flattens you.
I can see a 2 or 3 man wide, 5 model long unit being fairly effective, as you get 10-15 attacks, but you won't do much with those, a 3 model wide unit still gets hit by everyone in a 5 man unit as normal, and, if the rumours about needing a rank bonus to break ranks are true, you won't even make a good flanking unit! Still, in comparison you would have a fairly cheap unit, less than 150pts, but I think I would rather spend those on Dualists with pistols (which may even have an extended range in the coming edition!).
One thing I am excited about is larger Crossbowman units. Not just the always standard 10 man long, or the ever present 5x2 on a hill. To me, the ability to be effective in two ranks really opens up the doors for heavily changed deployment, as suddenly interspersing a few 5x2 crossbow units between your battle line allows for more protected units, with better fields of fire. And, maybe now everyone will stop giving me such a strange look when I deploy my 20 man crossbow unit (which I have found to be very effective)!
Maybe a few of our less used Regiments of Renown may see a resurgence with a change in the base rules.
Actually, if the firing in two ranks rumour is true, I think that a lot of armies are going to be fielding larger units of missile troops, which could be a problem for our lightly armoured, majority toughness 3 force. So I think it might be worth taking a second look at some of our own missile armed Regiments of renown.
As I've mentioned in various places.
Halfling bowmen are probably going to be the new Lumpins unless skirmishers have some nice thing stuck up their sleeve. All currently rumours are pointing towards a complete and utter nerf. With some as shocking as 'no 360degree line of sight', to having a loose-fixed formation. Especially with wheeling apparently free, may as well cut the points for command and skirmish right out.
Hotpots are yes please. 100 points for 2 stone throwers, and can still fit in 2 cannon as well. I think we may even be able to squeeze in 2 hotpots, 2 cannons and a giant if we really want.
Pikemen are completely boned. Lack of armour and overcosted. Fighting in 4 ranks was never really that useful before due to being strength 3, it aint gonna be a huge boon to fight in 5 ranks (In fact, it only gives us about an extra wound before saves).
Dwarves will keep on slugging along like usual. Hand weapon + shield bonus changing is a slight nerf to them, maybe we'll see more GW armed Dwarves.
Norsemen, should still keep on going strong. Who cares about initiative order, as long as everyone has 2 ranks after casualties everyone fights. Flails may be stronger down the long run, I think it depends on how armies evolve (Will we see HUGE units to soak up casualties, or smaller say 15 man sized units that can only soak up a few casualties).
Paymasters bodyguard, still crap. Mydas' bodyguard are probably a bit better though. 2 Ranks of strength 5 halberdiers isn't too shabby. Just a pity I believe Mydas' bodyguard has a max of 20.
Cavalry is still a bit up in the air. We may end up needing more Light Cavalry/Heavy Cavalry for rank breaking. Cavalry can't charge into high strength units with impunity anymore (Provided the cavalry thought htye could kill off the rank of course), since 2 ranks will be fighting back, ouch!
Duellists I think get better as long as skirmish isn't hit too bad. Pistols apparently get a range increase. Fighting in initiative order means duellists may actually hit something before falling over like flies (Of course, before you might be left with a few left to escape. Now they're probably all going to die).
That's about all I can think of really. I think there's still too much up in the air to make firm oppinions though.
That sounds like a pretty darned good approximation of how things are going to change. I am also wondering whether or not multiple ranks of cavalry are going to be seen. Not for 'elite' units, like Dragon Princes or Chaos Knights, but more for empire knights and equivalents, like ours.
Yeah 8th ed is going to be different and challenging for Dogs ! Def nerfed the Pikes and cav may be changed for the worse with the guess range charge ! I think it will be the specials and rares which will be the bulk of our armies in 8th.
And do not forget the 50+ magic items which will be 'buffing' our army . So there is a hope but I will wait and see if I continue to use Dogs in 8th ed when I get my grubby mitts on the book .
It's the magic items list I am pretty stoked about too, if it turns out to be true. I am outclassed every game with all the interesting banners and arcane items the "booked" opponents can throw at me. It's well worth nerf'ing the Pikemen if the list can equal that out.
Yeah, a 'nerf' on an already nearly useless unit is a great trade for a significantly more even playing field!
I am super stoked about the magic items rumours, and not just for Dogs, because it seems they are putting more of the 'fantasy' back into the game, and it just sounds like fun.
I think the new rules help the Pikemen. Although I love my Crossbowmen, if the enemy closes for hand-to-hand, the Pikemen stand a better chance of surviving the first charge.
I never liked Great Weapons, except for statues. Swinging last all the time puts your troops at a severe disadvantage, especially since they cannot use a shield with a GW. That's why, as a Dwarf Thane, I always preferred Ironbreakers to Hammerers. Of course, a unit wielding GWs looks really cool, but I think it is just mass-suicide.
And, the Frenzy rule for Norse Marauders plays into a shrewd enemy's hand: They can just lure your marauders into a trap so easily. Then, you've got a gap in your line, with exposed flanks. I've used them twice in the past, and both units got suckered into charging, then being surrounded and annihilated.
But, maybe that is just me.
Hmm, on WhineSeer they're saying, that we won't get a new pdf...does that mean, we now officially play as a "blast from the past" like the Chaos Dwarfs? I mean, where the 7th Ed. contained mostly minor changes, the 8th Ed. seems to turn the whole game upside down!
But even with the old rules, we still get some new toys:
- Magic Items! Maybe the best change for us, no more Sword of Battle!
- The change to the magic system plus the new items could help the mercenary general to a comeback, or even 2, because you should be able to fit 2 of them into a 2k points army!
- The new core lores seem to get pretty nasty (Fireball with 3d6 s6 hits? Get me a bunch! A spell, which turns my mage into a high dragon of old? good thing to have!), which definitely bolsters our dear dogs, since we're able to pick all 8 lores!
- Shooting from 2 ranks makes (as already mentioned) our crossbowmen and especially the halfling archers alot better
- The percentage system allows us to put up more of your special jewels, with 2 20 "men" units of halflings we can still get dwarfs, maneaters, marauders and/or mengil! In the Rare slot its similar: Into 500 points (25% of 2k) we can squeeze 2 cannons, 2 halfling pots and a giant! Or 2 Pots, the Hewer and a single Rhinoxbull/Giant!
So even if we don't get new rules...the rulebook alone will give us a bunch of new possibilities! I like it more with every passing day..
(06-09-2010 06:37 AM)Morkash Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm, on WhineSeer they're saying, that we won't get a new pdf...does that mean, we now officially play as a "blast from the past" like the Chaos Dwarfs? I mean, where the 7th Ed. contained mostly minor changes, the 8th Ed. seems to turn the whole game upside down!
But even with the old rules, we still get some new toys:
- Magic Items! Maybe the best change for us, no more Sword of Battle!
- The change to the magic system plus the new items could help the mercenary general to a comeback, or even 2, because you should be able to fit 2 of them into a 2k points army!
- The new core lores seem to get pretty nasty (Fireball with 3d6 s6 hits? Get me a bunch! A spell, which turns my mage into a high dragon of old? good thing to have!), which definitely bolsters our dear dogs, since we're able to pick all 8 lores!
- Shooting from 2 ranks makes (as already mentioned) our crossbowmen and especially the halfling archers alot better
- The percentage system allows us to put up more of your special jewels, with 2 20 "men" units of halflings we can still get dwarfs, maneaters, marauders and/or mengil! In the Rare slot its similar: Into 500 points (25% of 2k) we can squeeze 2 cannons, 2 halfling pots and a giant! Or 2 Pots, the Hewer and a single Rhinoxbull/Giant!
So even if we don't get new rules...the rulebook alone will give us a bunch of new possibilities! I like it more with every passing day..
BUT:
If in the new book has a new "Ravenings Hordes"- List and
Dogs of War are no longer mentioned and this new list replaces the old, we are officially dead
(06-08-2010 11:35 PM)miklamar Wrote: [ -> ]I think the new rules help the Pikemen. Although I love my Crossbowmen, if the enemy closes for hand-to-hand, the Pikemen stand a better chance of surviving the first charge.
Surviving the first charge of what? Because it certainly isn't heavy cavalry or Elite infantry. How are the new rules going to help Pikemen? We fight in one extra rank, increasing our effectiveness by 25%, the average enemy fights in two, doubling theirs. Anyone we manage to kill with our striking first does not deny the enemy attacks. The ONLY advantage we will have under the new edition, is that models killed with Impact hits will not remove attacks, assuming we have MORE than 5 ranks...!
(06-08-2010 11:35 PM)miklamar Wrote: [ -> ]And, the Frenzy rule for Norse Marauders plays into a shrewd enemy's hand: They can just lure your marauders into a trap so easily. Then, you've got a gap in your line, with exposed flanks. I've used them twice in the past, and both units got suckered into charging, then being surrounded and annihilated.
So, be shrewd as well. Cover your Marauders with Duelists, or even fast cavalry. Don't let them out until you want them out.
Overall, I see the following:
Magic - major improvement, as this flattens things. Dogs of War Magic Items get much better and broader (so merely below average, rather than utter fail), while Dogs of War Magic never was too strong, so doesn't get nerfed too much at the high end.
Pikes - completely useless. Even if it's just +1 rank to all, 5 Pikes vs 2 non-Pikes is better than 4 Pikes vs 2 non-Pike, but still auto-loss, no matter how you look at it. With this change, Pike are worth perhaps 5 or 6 points MAX, not 10.
Crossbows - Crossbows still only shoot in 1 rank, so they take twice the frontage of regular bows.
Cavalry - will be OK, due to reasonable price.
Duellists - nerfed due to new "face one direction" rule, but still should come out OK.
Norse - Beorg got better, but GWs got worse. Going to need more models, but at least they're normal.
On net, I think Dogs of War are going to lose out, as our Core is pretty badly hurt here, and there's now minimum points % along with caps on non-Core.
JohnHwangDW, I think you are not up to date on some of the rumours.
All missile weapons fire in 2 ranks. Shortbows, Bows, Longbows get a Salvo rule that allows some help from ranks beyond 2nd. So this helps our Crossbows out, by allowing us to deploy in nicer 5x2 formation rather than 10x1 (Which I think is probably the main reason fro this change, the long thin formation are somewhat ugly).
Norse, Beorg gets worse, GW's are potentially better (at least in 2nd round they are). GW's are a trade off of armour versus killing. Doesn't matter when you strike, as long as you have spare bodies you get full attacks (Althoug Norse lose out a bit compared to Dwarves as you only get 1 attack from 2nd rank). Hand weapon and shield bonus gets a nerf against strength 3 and 4, same against strength 5, and slightly better against strength 6 since the Hand weapon and shield bonus is now basically "6+ ward save in Close combat" - and maybe only against infantry.
Pikes like always are too expensive. It's not that lots of strength 3 attacks is that bad (or strength 4 in regards to cavalry). Just that we pay too much for those additional attacks. And that has always been their problem. I think 8th would actually help them if they were reasonably priced (as 6th and 7th ed problem was, no matter how reasonable the price would be, they still had to compete with special slot infantry as you could plonk down cheap core).
I personally think, Dogs of War lose some and get some, but aren't really any weaker than before. It's quite easy when you throw in Volands Venators or Marksmen of Miragliano to get your 25% min core. Hotpots got a lot better, as apparently Stone Throwers don't ignore armour except under the hole. That and we can spam cannons and hotpots now.
So it's a lot of trade off's really.
However, new star of the list. Halfling Hotpots. 100 points for two is like nothing out of our rare % and in the list overall. Compared to the rumoured stone thrower S3(9 under the hole) armour saves allowed except under the hole. We get a S3(6) that ignores all armour. Sounds like a must have for only 100 points for 2.
Especially if the new 'no partials' is correct.
Honestly, I look at Dogs, and the only thing that got flat out WORSE is Pikes, which were not exactly propping the army up.
Ok, I was talking to a blackshirt today, who went to a conference, today or yesterday and here is what I was told -
- Shooting is indeed in 2 ranks, even xbows, but if you're on a hill you can shoot in three ranks, and is now in true line of sight, gave me an example with some woods, and shooting through, but it was a bit confusing. Shooting through woods just means -1 to hit.
- Skirmishers can move and shoot with no penalties. Skirmishers can also rank up in combat and get the bonus. They also still have 360 degree vision, which isn't gone.
-The +2 save for infantry for hand weapon + shield is gone . Instead you get a +1 armour save and a 6 + ward save. You can take both armour and ward saves.
-Slots are gone there is just percentages. 25% Lord, 25% hero, 25%+ with core, 15% with rare and either 20% or 25% special. You can have just one core choice as long as it is at least 25 % . Apparently with 3000 + points you double each one so you could have 30% rare at 3000 points. 6 hotpots at 2k if you want.
-Ogres have a stomp attack which is resolved at initative 1 and at the models base strength. All infantry can attack in two ranks, even mostorous infantry, as long as the front rank is at least three models wide, but can be wider.
- If you charge you don't strike first , as all attacks are resolved at initiative, but you do get a +1 combat resolution for charging.
-No more guess ranges for war machines, just aim and shoot
- You can apparantly create your own war machine rules in a section of the rulebook, he only mentioned this but didn't go into detail about it
-Siege rules + some other stuff in the rulebook, like 40k but all the supplements are in the rulebook
-Dogs of war aren't going to be dropped, but there is no plans for an army book, still a legal army.
-Allies work in the same way as a single army would. Let's say you are playing at 2k and ally dwarfs and empire. You would still follow the percentages for each army, but you would treat them as two 1000 point armys working together. Not sure about hero's in different armies being in the other armies units.
- Allies, have a Order based thing. Tomb Kings, Ogres are neutral and can team up with any one. Dogs of war aren't mentioned in the book, but are considered neutral. Can even team up Dogs of war with Bretonnians.
- Horde rule where you can get another rank for fighting. + rank can fight. Any unit can horde but it has to be 10 wide and 3 deep. He said something about two ranks normally being able to fight, but he explained it with night goblins and confused me a bit
- Cavalry can fight in two ranks, but horses in the second rank don't fight, cav shooting can fire in two ranks as well
- Magic changed drastically, something about randomly generating, didn't have pen + paper. He showed me where a lv 2 wizard rolled 2 die a 4 and a 5 so got 9 power dice. Extra wizards can now channel. Channelling requires rolled a D6 and on the roll of a 6 you get + 1 power dice. You can have as many wizards as you want as long as you don't go over the percentage. The enemy then uses the highest number , 5 so he gets 5 dispel dice and you can channel for more dispel dice. Not sure how levels fit into it. Getting double 6 for dispelling means you then have to roll on the miscast chart. You can never have more then 12 power/ dispel dice, no matter what.
-No magic items points increase, still at the same points. Apparantly there is one page for magic items and armour, one page for arcane items, one page for talismans, one for enchanted and one for banners. However, I doubt their would be one for magic items and armour, when their is one for everything else, as I bet I heard him wrong, rather then this happening.
-He didn't know how Arsanil would work
-Charging has something about leadership, can't remember how it worked, despite a demonstration, but it has isn't double the move distance, it has something to do with the dice, + the move distance.
-In the rule book, their is alot more pages with painted miniatures, there are even some that fold out with huge battle scenes.
- He told me that it is 580 pages, and he said it either weighed 15, or 50 kg, and he had trouble carrying two at a time. He isn't a weedy guy and has average strength for a guy in his mid 30's.
-The collectors has gold gilt on it, and is leather bound. He said it was impressive, and although he said the normal rule book is £45 he didn't know how much the collectors was, but guessed at around £100, and said their was a twin tailed comet on it. He didn't see the starter set but said, that the other stuff, that I posted a link to BOLS will be available together in a bundle. Wasn't told a price
-I'm getting to see the rule book, on Thursday, and was told, that when I pre-order the book I can look at some stuff in the book, if I pre-order it from the store, so can check out anything you want to know. Also, something super sweet, is that if I pre-order my rulebook in store on the Thursday, rather then waiting for the release date, I can get my rule book, when the store gets some. So I could get mine before the end of June. However, if the store gets them late, then I will get mine late. But I doubt that. This was all confirmed by a black shirt who went to a conference, either today or yesterday and even talked to Jervais .
Forgot to mention that their is alot more variety with spells, and more augment spells. He was talking about a Fay Enchantress getting charged by some chaos knights, and then managing to turn into a dragon, but I have no clue how that works ?
OK, I guess we'll just have to wait for more info to come out.
More info indeed...
Regardless, I did some quick math, thinking I might just mess around with a unit of 70 Ricco's Republican Guard, giant horde of pikes, would look neat. I have 23 already. Then I realized at $20 (Canadian) for 3, it would be about $300 for the rest of the unit. Yikes.
Forgot to mention that units that horde are stubborn
Well... still doesn't change our status I guess. Everything the blackshirt said seems to be his oppinion (i.e Dogs of War aren't included as a 'proper' army in the rulebook). I've heard Chaos Dwarfs get a page or two of fluff, so I'm hoping at the very least Tilea gets the same kind of deal.
But thanks for info.