Wondering if we could produce a good discussion on Ogres. We all know that Maneaters are the favorite of nearly everyone; but I want to discuss the differences between the basic Dogs of War Ogres, Bulls and Ironguts.
Costs/Stats/Special rules...
Obviously stuff from OK book get Impact if 6" charge. I know the OK command is more expensive. Guts get I think 1 better LD, can't remember about WS, but I'd be more than pleased if someone else would say it.
Out of these 3 choices which would you take, why?
I think I would always go with the maneaters, but I think some regular bulls would be a nice shock effect.
Irongut has the same WS, but always have great weapons so you basically have S 6 attacks, which nice as well. Also ld 8
What about cost? I can't recall cost of regular Bull/IG vs. Dogs of War Ogre. Another + for the IG is they can take magic banner. Not that there's much worth taking other than Warbanner.
What about Leadbelchers? They intimidate with their cannon fire and can still club people with 3 attacks at WS 3. Not too much higher of cost than the Ironguts. I find they work well to thin down the enemy ranks before close combat. Helps combat res a lot.
If in 8th edition Infantry can fight in two ranks, than I wonder if a unit of 6 Bulls starts to look like a nice shock trooper unit. Especially with Bull Charge. That is, if it applies to giant sized units.
Ogresize- units will get own hth-rules!
IG are the alternative, if maneaters are too expensive...leadbelchers are a nice flank-and terror troop, but I just take units with two each, so they can threat light kav and skirmishers and help pikes and knights to beat large blocks of infantry.
I've been thinking about that. If they do get different hth rules and don't get something to make up the difference, than I do not seeing the Ogres as a viable army (or special option for Dogs of War) come 8th edition. They already give up a lot on combat res, without them giving up their multiple attack advantage.
But not to get it off topic (and making this a 8th edition rule rumour thread), I love the Ironguts as well. Can hold itself against a mounted 2+ armour save with their 6 Str. Not that I would advise looking to be on the receiving end of a knightly charge anytime soon. But if the opportunity arises....
I have this insane idea of only starting with the basic Dogs of War list and playing that for a while before upgrading things into other books or RoR. Kind of like starting with a crap book and then introducing the OK and RoR to myself later, like a new army book release. I don't know, I'm kinda nuts.
Point was, I was looking at using 2 untis of Dogs of War Ogres w/GW's and then after a while deciding to use them as Bulls or IG's. Just wans't sure the upgrade to take or cost ratio if it would be easier to just keep the Dogs of War Ogres at that point.
I actually really like the basic list in a lot of ways. And also like the Fluffy build you're thinking about. The Duelists, the Marauders, the Dwarves, our Cav possibilities. I know Tribun loves our Pikemen. The army is average in all areas (shooting/magic/hth), but nothing that really stands out.
I find the rare options not so hot, so maybe you're first RoR be the Dragon Lord? I know that's my next purchase.
To the Ogre idea, the basic Dogs of War Ogre is 35 with a +6 for GW makes it 41. Which is cheaper than the OK Ironguts, and you're not really missing more than the Impact hits.
As a beginner(like me), it's a good army to build your overall tactics on. Rather that work on one facet of the game, I need to worry about it all. And I'm losing, but getting better.
(05-04-2010 12:52 PM)Sadirath Wrote: [ -> ]... I know Tribun loves our Pikemen...
I
love the opportunity to have knights, dwarfs and ogres in one army!
I
like pikemen, because they are so fluffy, but I don't use them often...knights, xbows and duelists are more worth their points!
(05-04-2010 12:52 PM)Sadirath Wrote: [ -> ]I find the rare options not so hot, so maybe you're first RoR be the Dragon Lord? I know that's my next purchase.
I would not be making the Dragonlord your next purchase until we find out what percentage cap is on characters.
As far as I am aware, we won't be able to use Asarnil until 2500 points (And thats' bare minimum other characters) if the character cap is 25%.
Dont overlook the Ld8 of ironguts.
This is one of my fav tactics with both my Ogre and Dogs of War armies, I use my Ironguts with bellower (musician) as nice juicy bait, stick them in a place where if they DONT charge you then your getting a nice charge off on them, if they DO charge you get a nice flee and then rally on LD9 (or 10 if your general is near). No one expects great weapons weilding Ogres to be bait, bulls and leadbelchers yes but the IGs take some people by suprise.
My mantra with ogres is...never ever take a charge, never ever charge unsupported (unless its a maneater + tyrant deathstar) cause ogres dont have the static res to beat most units head on.
Bulls are a near waste of points, I only take one or 2 in my ogre army for bait/redirection, only upgrades they get is xtra hand wep and a bellower, otherwise Ironguts are the core troop of the army.
Value for money Ironguts are your best bet, Maneaters are oh so good but they die just as easy as Ironguts and they cost you roughly 30 points a wound (90 pts, 3 wounds) where a Irongut is...55 points I think so 18 points a wound.
I love Ogres--especially if, like Golgfag, you can equip them with heavy armor and two hand weapons (axes in my mind)! Some of the RoRs are really strong, while others seem overpriced for what they promise. And, I just cannot get into using Manflayers; Dark Elves creep me out! That's one of the many reasons I like the Ogres!
Concerning RoRs versus Core units, I am starting to lean toward the value of numbers versus "quality." Look at the Skavens' numbers (not to mention their vastly improved technology!), and you begin to worry a bit. In other wargames, larger numbers of "cheap" units have often overwhelmed the fewer "quality" armies and navies. After all, if you lose one expensive quality unit, it leaves a much-larger gap in your forces than if you lose several simpler units.
So, I am beginning to experiment with hiring only a few, specialized "quality" units and loading up heavily with numerous "plain vanilla" Core units. The more-numerous units can surround the enemy more quickly! That helps against certain Unbreakable foes, like the Undead.
Numbers work when the model cost is low, as Skaven & Orks show. Duellists, Light Cav, & generic Heavy Cav are all OK for Dogs of War as vanilla Core. Not so much for 10+ pt Dogs of War Pikes, tho.
But the numbers in the skaven and O&G armies are rank and file.
We have no cheap rank and file. I know thats the point of Dogs of War, but it is still frustrating.