So, now that they're no longer sold out, I'm considering some Perry WotR halberdiers to use as a Paymaster's Bodyguard. But looking at the rules, I'm not sure that it's worth the points to put the Paymaster in a stubborn unit when those points and that Special slot could be better spent, if nothing else, on Norse with GW (I've mostly been arming my Paymaster with a brace of pistols and sticking him in a unit of duelists, which has surprisingly rarely put him in serious danger). Does anybody with experience using the Paymaster Bodyguard have any strong feelings on the utility of the unit one way or another?
Most people who play the army will tell you, they're not a very competitive unit at all.
Stubborn isn't worth the cost you're paying for them. What I like to say is...
They're Empire Halberdiers, with a bit better weaponskill and leadership. Is it really worth paying 3 points for stubborn when a crap character who is likely going to die, so they won't be stubborn.
THAT, and Empire Halberdiers are generally regarded as crap as well since current 7th edition combat you either win by killing lots, or by taking as few casualties as you can.
Use Norse or Dwarves for a cheaper and more effective bodyguard.
I just switched from the halberdiers to Leopold's Leopard Company, since they are Unbreakable--plus, they look really cool!. But, they have not yet been put to the test.
People may think I'm being wasteful or overly protective, but I also like to screen my (new) bodyguards with some Duellists, armed with a pistol. (Both of these were suggestions in other threads, here.)
So, I say do whatever makes you feel comfortable. But, the longer your Paymaster lives, the happier your life as a mercenary leader will be!
(05-02-2010 04:36 AM)miklamar Wrote: [ -> ]I just switched from the halberdiers to Leopold's Leopard Company, since they are Unbreakable...
Immune to Psychology, not Unbreakable. Big difference.
OT: I used them a few times, and yes, they quite suck.
I must be the only adovcate for PM's bodyguard on this forum ! I have used them several times with mixed results with them supported by my LB's . With the PM as the BSB you get +1CR then add warbanner another +1CR and the rank bonus . So that can be up to 5 CR in melee . Admittely you need to get the charge , but with combined arms like duelists, heavy cav and my LBs to could get the chance to win combats .
But there are advantages with Norse and their frenzy , ITP etc . but a savvy player could use that aginst you and put the PM at risk . At least while the PM is alive he can survive on his stubborness roll if the combat goes against his unit . With 8th ed coming out I think our army will suffer more and if you do play the new rules it will change our lists and may be not for the better !!!
If the Paymaster is challenged hhe either dies or is moved to the back rank. Either way the unit loses stubborn.
Also, are Leos much better than regular pikes for the points. They get a captain but the unit already dishes out 4 ranks of attacks so the captain does not add much more punch. And immune to phycology is not all that useful considering the unit will still break in combat and regular pikes are not likely to panic through shooting due to high numbers.
A true bodyguard unit should be able t house the paymaster and keep him safe without him having to do sweet FA. After all, one does not hire a bodyguard and then expect to have to assist in defending themselves.
I think the only time they are worthwhile, when they are taken with Mydas the Mean. His special rules boost the bodyguard giving them S4 +1 for halberd (S5 total) as well as the various other boosting ability he random bestows.
Plus you get the Paychest, which I think is cool and fun.
Generally, I have found the PM's Bodyguard to be less than stellar, generally for the following reasons:
a. They are only stubborn if the PM is with them;
b. The PM is fairly easy to kill (he is an accountant after all), and then every unit has to take a panic test AND the unit loses their special rule; and
c. For a the costs you get a human with T3, S3 and light armour - can you say easy to hurt and kill? with very little in the way of improving their survivability.
Compared with Empire Greatswords - available for only slightly more points to a similar army, the bodyguard:
a. Wears less armour;
b. Isn't stubborn all the time;
c. Has an inferior weapon.
Since the key to keeping your army of average Ld troops together is making sure the PM remains intact I like to use a bodyguard of Dwarfs with HA, Shields and all the command trimmings to ensure maximum survivability - best armour save, superior T and the best Ld you're going to get.
(05-02-2010 04:36 AM)miklamar Wrote: [ -> ]I just switched from the halberdiers to Leopold's Leopard Company, since they are Unbreakable--plus, they look really cool!. But, they have not yet been put to the test.
Even if though the Leopard company isn't unbreakable the slayer pirates are. However, with the current edition of the rules you can't put a character that isn't unbreakable with an unbreakable unit .
(05-03-2010 10:16 AM)arkfatalis Wrote: [ -> ] (05-02-2010 04:36 AM)miklamar Wrote: [ -> ]I just switched from the halberdiers to Leopold's Leopard Company, since they are Unbreakable--plus, they look really cool!. But, they have not yet been put to the test.
Even if though the Leopard company isn't unbreakable the slayer pirates are. However, with the current edition of the rules you can't put a character that isn't unbreakable with an unbreakable unit .
Good point.
(05-02-2010 07:11 AM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: [ -> ] (05-02-2010 04:36 AM)miklamar Wrote: [ -> ]I just switched from the halberdiers to Leopold's Leopard Company, since they are Unbreakable...
Immune to Psychology, not Unbreakable. Big difference.
OT: I used them a few times, and yes, they quite suck.
Sorry, you are correct. I stand corrected.
I wonder how the new edition will affect this. I've heard that things like stubborn will work differently...
That worries me. I love my stubborn greatswords as is currently... Paymasters bodyguards not so much.
Changing stubborn rules worries my with my Empire hat on.
Makes me happy with my O&G hat on (unless it becomes harder to break).
Indifferent with Dogs of War hat.
Besides the fact that they are over pointed and weak for a Special choice, especially considering the power of newer army books, one of their big downsides in the current environment is that being stubborn does not provide any immunity to psychology, specifically auto breaking due to fear causing enemies. If anything, I would expect (and the rumours seem to indicate) that the auto break will be gone or heavily changed, and that their stubborn will actually give them some staying power.
I love my Paymaster's Guard, I put a lot of work into them (and have to fix them up a little) and really like how they ended up, and include them in the army because they are a big part of how I see the force working.
That being said, they are not very good. They are easily outdone, as I said, by pretty much everything in the new books, regardless of army, and can't be expected to accomplish much. Static combat resolution doesn't really get you anything in this edition, and they don't have the real killing power to turn the tide. Additionally, if you try and use them for their stubborn, by exposing them to risk to catch an enemy unit so that it can be crushed on the sides, you are exposing the Paymaster, which is about the last thing you want to do.
That all being said, if you are going to take them, you are going to have to expose them to intelligent risk, because you are paying real points for them.
I take 15 currently (in a 1000-1500pt game), with full command, the Warbanner (has to be included), and Heavy Armour. Whether or not the Heavy Armour is worth it, has to be decided on your own. I have a really hard time NOT giving any of my units that can take it armour, and as 15 Guard with Heavy armour cost an additional +15pts, not even enough for two more wounds worth of models, I do it.
In a word.
No!
In common with most Dogs of War units they're overpriced and for what you pay they're ineffective.
To be fair though, the argument that they are overpriced and underpowered is actually rather moot, as, since we are considering a choice in the Dogs of War army, almost every unit in the book meets those criteria.
Honestly, what the new edition decides to do with Stubborn and Fear/Terror, as well as any changes to armour modifiers and weapons (halberds), will have a fair impact on the unit.
As Shane as said many other forum members have critcised the wisdom of taking the PM's BG in Dogs Of War armies and the better alternatives avialable .But with 8th Ed. coming out these may be swept away and the unit being a better choice in 8 Ed. Just have to wait and see in July and see how this will make this unit a better choice or worse under the new rules .