I've been up against a High Elf Bolt thrower a lot recently and having a hard time. It doesn't help that I don't have artillery in my possession yet, so my opponent has been setting up farthest away from me on the board and just killing me with Bolt Thrower and his two mages using Lore of Fire (took out a group of Ironguts using a conflag of Doom spell that never wanted to go out!)
So specifically, oh experienced ones, please give me some advice as to what units are best at taking the Bolt thrower and so on out? I tried light Cav with Bows at one point, worked well...
Any tricks I might be missing?
Dogs of War are pretty weak in shooting, so getting into a shooting contest is a bad idea.
Your better bet is to counter the Magic (Wizard Lord, & Truthsayer), while taking Hewer or Asarnil to kill his expensive stuff.
I had good luck charging a unit of 5 light cav into an enemy HE bolt thrower before. They were glade riders, though, and your opponent likes to guard his better than mine did.
What army do you have? It helps to know what you have to work with.
Use a unit of light cav and a captasus, that way he can only shoot one of them before getting charged. You might lose a unit if you are unlucky, but you will almost certainly get rid of his bolt thrower.
(04-07-2010 03:31 AM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: [ -> ]Use a unit of light cav and a captasus, that way he can only shoot one of them before getting charged. You might lose a unit if you are unlucky, but you will almost certainly get rid of his bolt thrower.
Even if you don't it ought to be two turns until he can return his attention to the rest of your army by which time it will be in combat
Yeah, something fast to get at it ASAP
My army list was weak. I also know that for certain. I am new to Warhammer but taking The Cursed Company against the High Elves with their first striking abilities was a waste of points, ESPECIALLY in a 1000 pt battle. Stupid. Just was excited from a new model purchase I think. Honestly, I don't want to put the army list I had been using for the last two battles, because there are holes in it for sure.
I think I am going to get the Goblin Hewer and Asarnil for sure, I was thinking of that already and I love the models. Some backing from JohnHwangDW gives me more confidence on that.
For now I am liking the Light Cav idea, plus it will fit my next purchase of Wolf riders perfectly. That and a Cannon.
My High Elf opponent doesn't like to charge at all. I counted, in the last two games he has successfully charged once! Forcing me to charge his first strikers and walk through fire and brimstone just to get to him. He doesn't even like to move up his forces. I could likely talk about inches in two games hes moved his units toward me. All his movements are tactical and on the far end of his side of the board. I see artillery the answer to that. Is there some nickname I can give this guy? Like the king of Cheese something? I guess he knows my army pretty well. I need to stop talking to him about it.....
Ok, so I'll work on a list and put it in the Army List forum.
fast cav and flanking skirmishers will shift him...
In that case don't give him an option. During setup make sure there are good chunks of forest on both sides and then hide behind them. When he starts to complain tell him what's for and that if he want's to sit on his side of the field and give you an unfun game by making you mark through 5 tons of shooting/magic then your going to return the favor and not give him anything to kill. LOL!
I know that a shooty line is a valid list; but that doesn't mean it's a good one; and certainly isn't much fun to play against.
I also second the Captasus and Light Cav idea. That or take your own heavy magic and go buy a couple cannons or Malikai's Hewer.
Sorry, but what is a Captasus?
Captain + Pegasus = Captasus
It's a play of words!
Huh, dang. missed that one. I usually love playing on words!
Pegasus purchase on the way, thanks DOWO!
(04-07-2010 07:21 AM)Sadirath Wrote: [ -> ]taking The Cursed Company against the High Elves with their first striking abilities was a waste of points,
My High Elf opponent doesn't like to charge at all.
As a general rule, the Cursed Company isn't very strong. They're expensive Skeletons, and the only way you get more is by (Krueger) killing stuff in combat. It's not like you've got tons of Magic to raise more and more and more every turn. Point for point, I'd just take Norse or Dwarves, or their RoR versions.
With ASF against your entire army, he doesn't have to charge. Put down a couple dozen naked Crossbows backing a Hewer and Asarnil, and he may have a problem staying put.
(04-07-2010 07:49 AM)jpf1982 Wrote: [ -> ]In that case don't give him an option. During setup make sure there are good chunks of forest on both sides and then hide behind them. When he starts to complain tell him what's for and that if he want's to sit on his side of the field and give you an unfun game by making you mark through 5 tons of shooting/magic then your going to return the favor and not give him anything to kill. LOL!
I know that a shooty line is a valid list; but that doesn't mean it's a good one; and certainly isn't much fun to play against.
I also second the Captasus and Light Cav idea. That or take your own heavy magic and go buy a couple cannons or Malikai's Hewer.
My own HE opponent is in love with this very same tactic - shoot-heavy and magic-heavy. Flyers and quick-like-bunny cavalry are the best response, along with some spellcasters to shut down his magic. I've also discovered archers have a pretty healthy dislike of people shooting them with guns, and Cannon vs Bolt Thrower generally goes poorly for the bolt thrower.
Empire Cannon vs Bolt Thrower is good, as Empire can snipe away from beyond 48" without retribution.
Dogs of War Cannon vs Bolt Thrower? Not so much. Dogs of War Cannon has no range advantage.
Agree with what has been said so far.
Light Cavalry with spears are a good option. Unless things go horribly wrong, you should at least keep the bolt thrower held up for a turn. However, you do have to be aware that he can use Archers to shoot the Light Cavalry.
Whatever way, he's using some portion of his magic/shooting to deal with the threat to the Bolt Throwers, which means he's not using it to shoot important units.
An idea I think is also to run naked duellists. They cost you 32 points, which is basically nothing. You use them as dedicated screens/redirectors. Pistol Duellists love to stand and shoot, but naked duellists don't have that option. You can also run them straight towards the Bolt Throwers as a screen to block line of sight. So the enemy has to use resources from either magic/shooting to deal with the fact his Bolt Throwers can't see anything useful. You don't even have to charge - I've sat Chameleon Skinks right in front of a Bolt Thrower before, just leaving them there to block sight.
However, naked Duellists don't have versatility. If there's no shooting or weak targets to go after, they don't have many useful things they can do.
I like the Duellist screen. Skirmishers at Long Range are -2, so he'll need 5s if he shoots a volley, probably only kill 1 Duellist per turn. For 32 pts invested, that's really not a bad result.
Aren't the duellists 8+ for 5pt per model ? which gives you 40p.
Start calling your mate "Turtle" or something since he litterally goes into a shell and plays so defensively he is not risking a mistake.
I like the naked duelist idea a lot. I always end up with more units anyways so I'll know where his bolt thrower is, and the cheapness is perfect...thanks someone2040. I need to go magic heavy because he is always going with two wizards. And he's been pretty lucky with his spell rolls.
The "High Turtle" should have more problems with me next game. Likely going with cannon to give his other units something to think about/fear while I'm concentrating on the Bolt thrower.
(04-08-2010 04:11 AM)ryjek Wrote: [ -> ]Aren't the duellists 8+ for 5pt per model ? which gives you 40p.
Right, that is correct. Still, 40 points is not bad and easily worth it's weight if you use them as a skirmish screen from ranged attacks, and then use them for redirecting.
Granted they can pass Ld7 test, they really are good screeners. As to war machines, think of Lumpin Croops or Mengil's they can often take a warmachine out with one turn worth of shooting.
(04-07-2010 07:44 PM)someone2040 Wrote: [ -> ]Agree with what has been said so far.
Light Cavalry with spears are a good option. Unless things go horribly wrong, you should at least keep the bolt thrower held up for a turn. However, you do have to be aware that he can use Archers to shoot the Light Cavalry.
Whatever way, he's using some portion of his magic/shooting to deal with the threat to the Bolt Throwers, which means he's not using it to shoot important units.
An idea I think is also to run naked duellists. They cost you 32 points, which is basically nothing. You use them as dedicated screens/redirectors. Pistol Duellists love to stand and shoot, but naked duellists don't have that option. You can also run them straight towards the Bolt Throwers as a screen to block line of sight. So the enemy has to use resources from either magic/shooting to deal with the fact his Bolt Throwers can't see anything useful. You don't even have to charge - I've sat Chameleon Skinks right in front of a Bolt Thrower before, just leaving them there to block sight.
However, naked Duellists don't have versatility. If there's no shooting or weak targets to go after, they don't have many useful things they can do.
What about using 2 units of Horse Archers (light cavalry with bows) and have them approach from 2 different sides or directions? Fast cavalry, they could get back there fairly quickly or, at the very least, distract him for a couple of turns, so he's not shooting your more-valuable units.
(04-07-2010 07:21 AM)Sadirath Wrote: [ -> ]My army list was weak. I also know that for certain. I am new to Warhammer but taking The Cursed Company against the High Elves with their first striking abilities was a waste of points, ESPECIALLY in a 1000 pt battle. Stupid. Just was excited from a new model purchase I think. Honestly, I don't want to put the army list I had been using for the last two battles, because there are holes in it for sure.
I think I am going to get the Goblin Hewer and Asarnil for sure, I was thinking of that already and I love the models. Some backing from JohnHwangDW gives me more confidence on that.
For now I am liking the Light Cav idea, plus it will fit my next purchase of Wolf riders perfectly. That and a Cannon.
My High Elf opponent doesn't like to charge at all. I counted, in the last two games he has successfully charged once! Forcing me to charge his first strikers and walk through fire and brimstone just to get to him. He doesn't even like to move up his forces. I could likely talk about inches in two games hes moved his units toward me. All his movements are tactical and on the far end of his side of the board. I see artillery the answer to that. Is there some nickname I can give this guy? Like the king of Cheese something? I guess he knows my army pretty well. I need to stop talking to him about it.....
Ok, so I'll work on a list and put it in the Army List forum.
Can we use the Goblin Hewer? If so, what are its statistics?
(04-15-2010 03:24 AM)miklamar Wrote: [ -> ]Can we use the Goblin Hewer? If so, what are its statistics?
Yes, we can use it, rules are in the Storm of Chaos book, but I think bilbobaggins has the rules on pdf too.
Thanks! I also found a discussion of it at:
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/topic/28205-goblin-hewer-rules/