I was wondering if how the Dogs of War might go about fielding a "Death Star" unit...
Fundamentally, any Dogs of War unit is going to have the Paymaster and some other fighting Character in a single durable unit able to resist shooting and outright assault. Given this as the start, why not try to take the next step and make it a Death Star?
For this to work, you need relatively inexpensive R&F for max static CR, along with kick-ass Heroes for HtH and decent Magic defense, so...
To start, there are only 3 ranked options:
- Pikemen (10+ppm; 11 ppm HA)
- Dwarves (7+ppm base; 9 ppm HA&S)
- Norse (7+ppm base; 8 ppm LA&S)
The Paymaster's Bodyguard doesn't make the cut, as it's unquestionably inferior to the Dwarves at a cost of 10 ppm HA. The Pikemen get cut for being T3 HA, and the most expensive. Dwarves are hardest to kill, but easily outmaneuvered due to their slowness. Norse are the cheapest R&F, and the most killy, but suffer from Frenzy; Frenzy is nice for the ItP until they're beat in HtH, which is pretty good for the most part - A1+1 in all directions with a 4+ save isn't terrible. I think it's pretty much a toss-up between Dwarves and Norse.
To keep the Paymaster alive, you'll need a Character to deal with Challenges and such:
- Dwarf Champion (+10 pts; +1A)
- Norse Champion (+10 pts; +1A)
- Lord General (+90+ pts)
- Beorg & Oerl (+150 pts)
The Champions are obligatory in basic Dwarf or Norse units, but not going to do much more than die against any serious attack. You can burn a Lord slot for a fighting General, but practically, you need the Lord slot more for Magic, due to the Paymaster sucking away a Hero slot. That leaves Beorg as the interesting option:
- Beorg WS5 S5 T5 W3 I3 A4; 4+ Ward
- Oerl +1A; Standard, +1 to hit 1st round of HtH
Beorg starts with stats comparable to an Orc Lord, and if you make him Angry:
- Angry Beorg WS5 S7 T6 W3 I3 A7; 4+ Ward
That's pretty scary - his Angry S, T, & A are the same as a Bloodthirster! And he has Frenzy on top of that, with a unit Champion to boot...
Given that Beorg is a Lord-class fighter who doesn't take a Hero slot, I think this is the basis for a Death Star:
69 for Paymaster (HA&ES)
140 for Lv.2 Wizard (Beasts, 2 Scrolls)
319 for Beorg, Oerl & 16 Norse
= 528 pts total
In a 5x4 block (+3 ranks), that's room for the Paymaster (+1CR), Wizard, Beorg & Oerl (+1CR) up front. Static CR is +5 from ranks and standards, and killiness is quite good.
What do you think?
Does a deathstar not need the abitlity for multiple shooting? Like the darkelf shade-deathstar
It's got a Wizard which could be upgraded to a Wizard Lord, and the Paymaster can always take a Brace.
But I'm not so sure it needs shooting?
FYI, here are a couple definitions:
Quote:Deathstar - A near invincible unit that is supported by multiple characters giving it bonuses such as ward saves, useful psychology rules, regeneration, etc. The Deathstar unit is often a very large points investment, often more than 50% of the army total cost. The aim of the army is a mixture of Victory Points denial and a steamroller approach with the Deathstar supported by a few other small units.
Quote:The way I see it, a unit has to fulfil three conditions before it qualifies as a so-called “Death Star” unit.
1) Worth a lot of points, so the other guy HAS to engage it in order to win.
2) Hits like a ton of bricks, and can continue dishing damage out even in subsequent rounds of combat.
3) Is able to soak up the very nastiest stuff the other guy has and still continue fighting, preferably without giving up any points.
And then there's
Dwarves...
I don't like the Eggs in One Basket approach of the Death star units. There are too many things out there that can make loads of ranked models disappear. Plus if it's Flanked it's hosed (unless stubborn and even they can still run.)
In short: Dogs of War are hardly an army that can have any good Deathstar units. We have no super troops (our elites are other armies core choices), and our characters are too weak. I find the balanced approach á la Empire works best.
While this starts 500-odd points in the basket, it could be bumped up higher.
As you still need to keep the Paymaster alive, this is probably one of the more viable ways of going about it.
Still one forced panic test failure and your army is hosed.
They're Frenzied - they don't Panic.
(07-10-2009 08:59 PM)JohnHwangDW Wrote: [ -> ]They're Frenzied - they don't Panic.
Who is frenzied?
Not the Bodyguard (they are stubborn)
If you read the original post, I eliminated the Paymaster's Bodyguard immediately. The are completely useless, even though they look great.
The unit I'm talking about starts with:
Beorg's Bearmen, 18 strong (Norse w/ HA&S)
Paymaster
Wizard
Norse are Frenzied and don't Panic because Frenzy confers ItP.
Please re-read the original post.
18 lightly armored norse doesn't sound like a Death Star unit to me. Hiting unit in flank in close combat and they'll lose and run.
The unit can be bulked up as large as necessary - 8 pts per model is as cheap as things get in a Dogs of War army.
But then, hitting any other Dogs of War unit in the flank won't end up much better.
Besides, Dogs of War have the best support units in the game. If you're letting the enemy hit your flanks like that, you deserve to lose.
That unit would be a projectile magnet. It may be a bit smaller once it is met in combat.
Mat I suggest adding an Estalian Cloak or a Pike of Remas?
Adding non-official magic items isn't going to work if you're playing at an event that doesn't allow it.
Norse at best will have a 5+ save from shooting. While frenzy means they won't panic , most experienced players will know how to deal with frenzied units.
It's a good thing Dogs of War have cheap Fast cav of their own, along with Duellists to screen against shooters...
Well Hwang, there are only so many units you can screen with and if you're using the rest of your forces to screen the death star unit other parts of your army are easier to pick apart. And if you screen with too much stuff the Dstar wont have sight to the units you'll want to charge.
There must be Balance in the Force.
The enemy picking off the rest of the army ignoring the Death Star unit you will probably lose the game.
The enemy destroying the Death Star unit you will probably lose the game.
Dwarves 23-25 of them with mounted paymaster (enchanted shield, pistol, and morning star). That is my standard block.
ive used the beorg death star many times before.. with 20 bearmen, truthsayer, paymaster w/ 1+ armour, 6+ ward, flail, and a captain w/ 2+ save, flail.. the enemys attacks have to be divided amongst so many targets that no individual character dies.. that equals many attacks back.. further, as dogs aren't used that often, ppl aren't experienced against them, so the don't comprehend the damaged that this unit can dish out..
on death stars needing to shoot.. this is not true.. take the vamp death star.. vamp lord tooled up, w/ bsb w/ regen banner in a unit of either black knights or grave guard.. this unit has no shooting other than the possibility of gaze of nagash, which is not that much of a threat and requires the lord to risk a miscast.. death stars don't necessarily need to be a shooting unit.. the shade star is, but it is but one death star..
You want a death star -- go with 5+ Maneaters armed with pistols. Then add as many as points allow. Add paymaster and away you go.
The doggie deathstar is taking a unit of 17 dire wolves with doomwolf in it and adding all your deathstar characters to the unit ie, Vampire lord tooled for combat, support vamp for more combat/invocations etc and of course a bsb with regen banner. This is different to the bloodknights in that they act as fast cav (moving at the pace of the slowest model ie barded steed) free reforms and agility to get where you want to be and of course not being frenzied so cannot be redirected as easily as Blood knights.
They were talking about making a Death Star unit out of units available to the Dogs of War players, not the infamous Doggie Death Star of the Vampire Counts.
I would say it can't be done.
Beorg's are good at dishing out damage, but they can't take it and there's no "always strike first" or "regeneration" banner to support them with. +1 to hit is nice, but dependant on actually surviving to strike.
Any Dogs of War character has to be on a barded warhorse, all they have going for them is an armour save, so take the best you can. Morning stars give you a strength bonus without having to strike last, or lose your shield bonus. If the combat goes over one round you're probably dead anyway so it's a good option. Lances if your character is going to charge, in fact there's no downside to taking a lance and morning star so take both. Brace of pistols is cheap, and gives you ranged punch.
Paymaster, brace of pistols, lance, morning star, heavy armour, shield, barded warhorse. A useful combination for 95 points. He has two attacks at strength 6 if he charges, strength 5 if he doesn't. 2 strength 4 shots and he can move and shoot without penalty (other than -1 for 2 x multiple shots, and to hit modifiers like skirmishing targets). He also has toughness 4, 2 wounds and a 2+ armour save.
Of course when he dies your entire army will run away, except for the dwarfs of course.
Although it has been pointed out, the elites in the Dogs of War are the core troops in other armies, they do produce a different dynamic in the Dogs of War. Empire for example can use their special choices to buy Greatswords (not the best option but there) instead Dogs of War can take Dwarfs, which provide a similar level of durability and fighting ability. They also have access to Ogres (including Maneaters) which are better than any Empire troop and Halflings... which are pretty crappy really.
Ogres are the equivalent of Empire Inner Circle Knights, toughness and wounds hopefully compensating for less/no armour.
I'm not sure, but I suspect that most Dogs of War players use all their rare slots to buy cannon.
I think that a Paymaster should hide out with the missile troops. Perhaps a unit of crossbow dwarfs. Swap the pistols for a crossbow (-4 points) in that case.