Dogs of War

Here's a sort of preliminary list. Keep in mind that I have not played an 8th Ed. game yet, and likely will need a trial by fire on this list, but I'd like some thoughts nonetheless.

Lords
Hireling Wizard Lord - 360
Level 4
Book of Ashur, Talisman of Endurance
Pegasus

Characters
Paymaster - 108
Helm of Discord, Other Trickster's Shard
Heavy Armour, Shield, Morningstar

Mercenary Captain - 167
Crown of Command, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone
Heavy Armour, Brace of Pistols, Lance
Pegasus

Core
Crossbowmen (10x) - 90
Musician
Crossbowmen (10x) - 90
Musician

Duelists (10x) - 110
Pistols, Champion, Musician
Duelists (10x) - 110
Pistols, Champion, Musician

Light Cavalry (15x) - 210
Shields, Spears

Special
Paymaster's Bodyguards (20x) - 155
Heavy Armour, Full Command
War Banner

Norse Marauders (30x) - 270
Flails, Full Command
Norse Marauders (30x) - 270
Flails, Full Command

Rare
Cannon - 85
Cannon - 85
Halfling Hot Pot - 50
Halfling Hot Pot - 50

Some of this is self-explanatory. The dual cannons and hot pots, well, we have 500+ points for Rare that we can't do anything else with. Might as well max them out. Plus, artillery rules have been boosted greatly in 8th. Hot pots wreak havoc now, and our cannons can make short work of monsters unlike before.

I have always been a fan of the Bodyguard. They're still I3, but I think the new rules for combat will allow them to shine against enemies that use to smash them, like Great Weapons.

The Light Cavalry. I wasn't sure what to do with these guys. I used to run some Bretonnian Men-at-Arms + Empire Pistoliers converted as Light Cav with Shields and Spears. Before, they were always reliable. If an enemy block was engaged to the front, they'd usually kill off enough in a flank charge not to get wiped out in return, then break them after negating their ranks. Now, however, their I3 means that simple Clanrats will smash a force of 5 or 6 Light Cavalry. Plus, they must have at least one rank bonus to disrupt the enemy. I thought about giving them bows instead since even cavalry may volley fire now, but at that point I might as well grab some Halflings instead. So I'm experimenting with three ranks of Light Cavalry with Spears. Put enough buildings down at terrain placement and you should be able to avoid ranged fire on your way to the flanks.

Crossbowmen and Duelists - Well, I'm just hoping that the new and improved rules for both skirmisher marching and shooting and shooting in two ranks will allow these guys to pour down enough S4 ranged attacks to either distract my opponents from the lightly armoured Norse and Bodyguards or at the very least deny some flanks.

The Norse Marauders are the product of my rant in the other thread about them. I figured that their I4 was begging to get used, and losing S5 after the first round of combat isn't a huge deal since if I don't break them in the first, there was no way they were going to survive a grinding combat anyways. New TLOS rules will make it harder to screen from ranged attacks, so an extra rank was included in each unit to make sure they have more ranks than the enemy when they do get into combat. I don't want to kill 10 guys on a charge just to see them Steadfast at Ld8 or something.

I'm worried about the Wizard Lord. He's got a hefty +5 to cast and dispel, but I'm worried that my opponent will simply bring a Dispel Scroll and a Hex Scroll and shut my magic down completely for half the game - the important half of course. I don't see how I could fit another Level 2 in there, and I feel that one Level 4 is superior to two Level 2s.

The Captain, well, he's the typical Captasus. The Crown of Command, high armour save, and reroll from the Luckstone will let him either tie up a unit for a while or prevent an enemy from pursuing a unit of mine that looks about to flee.

The Paymaster is purely hopped up for defense against characters. Ward saves must be rerolled, and every turn of combat (Mine and theirs) their character has a chance to become a temporary invalid.

Suggestion? Insults? Let me know...

Why have you made your paymaster a character hunter ? I was thinking about using the "Armour of destiny" . Also why have you given your captasus "Crown Of Command"? Surely it is better used with a general or captain in a big unit, to incease survivability?

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Edit: Forgot to say that I tried using the book of Ashur and it isn't that good

I would opt for another hero wizard. Since if your main wizard goes pop (which is very more likely with 8th miscasttable), You still hava another caster to use. Maybe drop the pegasus and put him a normal unit.

Maybe make the fast cav units of 5 and make use of the special rules to hunt their warmachines.

Also maybe add some halflings, not just because they are cool, but also with the bows they have the volley fire rule (15 shots in a unit of 20 I believe).

Besides that You have 3 big blocks (watch out with the frenzy though) that will perform well I think in 8th.

(07-29-2010 11:46 AM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]Why have you made your paymaster a character hunter?

He's not exactly a character hunter, but he's a fantastic target for all my opponent's characters, who will try to mulch him up with whatever crazy rules they have. The Armour of Destiny would be a good choice, too, but I kind of felt like most characters can get around a 4+ ward save since the Paymaster is so easily wounded. But I'll switch those out when I get a chance to play some games and try it.

(07-29-2010 11:46 AM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]Also why have you given your captasus "Crown Of Command"? Surely it is better used with a general or captain in a big unit, to incease survivability?

Most units in my army are going to hold fine on their own with the way ranks work in combat and rerolls from the Paymaster. Something I have seen work is a Dark Elf character on a dark rider/Pegasus with the Crown of Command and some kind of ward save to hold up enemy units and this is my low powered Dogs of War version. He can toss himself at the rear or flank of an enemy unit to tie them up for several turns, or he can charge, say, Ogres or Rat Ogres, killing one every turn without the worry of fleeing.

With Steadfast rules, I just don't see how a Captasus can be useful if not Stubborn. because they're never going to win combat on their own.

(07-29-2010 12:04 PM)Squirrelfreak Wrote: [ -> ]I would opt for another hero wizard. Since if your main wizard goes pop (which is very more likely with 8th miscasttable), You still hava another caster to use. Maybe drop the pegasus and put him a normal unit.

What would you take out for another Wizard? I have something like 40 points to spare on this list. Maybe take out 5 of the Light Cavalry and ditch the Lord's Pegasus. That might work, but I'd lose all his mobility.

(07-29-2010 12:04 PM)Squirrelfreak Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe make the fast cav units of 5 and make use of the special rules to hunt their warmachines.

I was kind of thinking the Captasus could do that. Light Cav can still Disrupt, but characters/monsters can't anymore.

(07-29-2010 12:04 PM)Squirrelfreak Wrote: [ -> ]Also maybe add some halflings, not just because they are cool, but also with the bows they have the volley fire rule (15 shots in a unit of 20 I believe).

I don't have any Halflings, though. And they are like $15 for 3 models lol. They are great options in this edition, though they'd eat into my Marauder points as a Special.

(07-29-2010 12:04 PM)Squirrelfreak Wrote: [ -> ]Besides that You have 3 big blocks (watch out with the frenzy though) that will perform well I think in 8th.

I'm thinking of running the Marauders as horde units now. Or at least, advancing them in normal formation, then doing swift reforms (with the Paymaster's reroll making it almost guaranteed) to 10x3 the turn before combat.

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Lords
Hireling Wizard Lord - 360
Level 4
Book of Ashur, Talisman of Endurance
Pegasus

As tempting as it is to put your wizard lord on a pegasus and fly him around the board, increased accuracy and numbers of Warmachines like Cannons make him an extremely expensive target, and as the shot cannot be 'absorbed' by the mount, it is extremely likely he will just get smoked. If you have a fair amount of cavalry in your army, putting him on a horse, alone but nearby, will allow him the 4+ 'look out sir' save.
Additionally, as most spells either have a longer range or the ability to boost the range, mobility for mages is not so important. What IS important is knowing what Lore you are going to take, as you need to have that selected BEFORE the game starts. I suggest choosing one that sounds both fun and that it would help your army, and just using it for awhile.
As for magic gear, seems pretty good. Though if you take him off the mount and hide him in a unit, you could probably find a better choice than the ward save.

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Characters
Paymaster - 108
Helm of Discord, Other Trickster's Shard
Heavy Armour, Shield, Morningstar

I don't know exactly what your plan here is, but whatever it is, it scares me! Keep your Paymaster AWAY from enemy characters! You want to give him survivability against both rank and file troopers, and 'Special' attacks, like character sniping spells and equipment. I cannot recommend the Opal Amulet enough, it is shocking how many things that actually works on!

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Mercenary Captain - 167
Crown of Command, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone
Heavy Armour, Brace of Pistols, Lance
Pegasus

I was playing around with making the Stubborn Captasus as well, but opted to make him cause Terror. I am interested to see how he works with this build.

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Core
Crossbowmen (10x) - 90
Musician
Crossbowmen (10x) - 90
Musician

Good choices. The smaller footprint makes a big difference in your deployment, as you can easily hide them between two combat units. I would not bother with the musicians though, strange as it sounds, since you are probably going to be within range of either your leadership 8 general, or get re-rolls from the paymaster, or both.

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Duelists (10x) - 110
Pistols, Champion, Musician
Duelists (10x) - 110
Pistols, Champion, Musician

First of all, Duelists come in a starting group of 8, which will panic after losing 2 models (25%). But by increasing the size by 1, to 9, suddenly you need to lose 3. Increasing the size again to 10 doesn't give you any additional boost, and it's better to save the points and use them elsewhere.
Oh, and the Champion certainly, and musician probably, are wasted points.

Taking off the two musicians from the X-Bows, (20pts), the two extra Duelists (18pts), and the command from the Duelists (40), gives you enough points to put in another unit of 8 Duelists.

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Light Cavalry (15x) - 210
Shields, Spears

I am going to assume this is broken into 3 units of 5? Otherwise, it is a large, fairly expensive target.
Fast cav have really only one use in 8th for Dogs of War, and that is warmachine hunting. This is hugely important though, as, combined with our greater number of rares, we may actually be able to take the warmachine advantage from our enemies.

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Special
Paymaster's Bodyguards (20x) - 155
Heavy Armour, Full Command
War Banner

Seems pretty solid. At the end of the day, i don't think heavy armour helps these guys at all, but I keep paying for it, because I think it's neat

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Norse Marauders (30x) - 270
Flails, Full Command
Norse Marauders (30x) - 270
Flails, Full Command

Holy yikes! I know EXACTLY where the Mortars are going to be landing! Personally, I would split this into three units, two of 15 with flails, one of 30 with greatweapons. It gives your enemies more targets, and you more options. Additionally, on the Greatweapon units for sure, drop the Champion, as anyone with any sense will just direct attacks against him and kill him before he gets to swing.

(07-29-2010 06:01 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Rare
Cannon - 85
Cannon - 85
Halfling Hot Pot - 50
Halfling Hot Pot - 50

Although in the games I played, my Warmachines did all of nothing for me, I stand by them as good choices, and having two of each can only help! Remember that we also have the option of a completely legal, non RoR Giant, and 2x Cannon, 2x Hot Pot and 1xGiant fit right into the % cap.

Ok Shane, this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for!

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]As tempting as it is to put your wizard lord on a pegasus and fly him around the board, increased accuracy and numbers of Warmachines like Cannons make him an extremely expensive target, and as the shot cannot be 'absorbed' by the mount, it is extremely likely he will just get smoked.
Additionally, as most spells either have a longer range or the ability to boost the range, mobility for mages is not so important.

It's possible that my instinct to put him on a Pegasus is a holdover from 7th Ed., but I'm mainly concerned about making sure he has LoS for spells, not necessarily just range; as you said, most spells can be modified now. It is possible that after studying the targeting restrictions for the different classes of spells, that won't really be a big deal anyways. The 5+ Ward is shaky defense against cannons like you said. I would also prefer to give him a Power Stone rather than a Ward save to boost my magic phase, but I think I would still need to keep the save even if I moved him into a unit for any sniping magic directed against him, as a Lvl 4 wizard is a perfect assassination target.

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know exactly what your plan here is, but whatever it is, it scares me! Keep your Paymaster AWAY from enemy characters! You want to give him survivability against both rank and file troopers, and 'Special' attacks, like character sniping spells and equipment. I cannot recommend the Opal Amulet enough, it is shocking how many things that actually works on!

During my experience with Warhammer, I have always found that some character inevitably slips through to threaten my Paymaster. Most notably, Skaven Assassins, or someone uses Steed of Shadows to hurl a fighty character at them. It seemed prudent to prepare for the worst.

I have always been wary of one-use-only defensive items that shatter after the first hit. A 4+ Ward is nice. It certainly does a good job to absorb an entire cannonball shot, but against the Lore of Metal, Spirit Leech, The Caress of Laniph, or The Fate of Bjuna (Either of which coupled with Soulblight) it seems it would hardly prevent our 2W Paymaster from biting the dust.

Are there any items you would recommend pairing with the Opal Amulet? Or do you just use it by itself for some points shaving? If I was going to ditch the 'character defense' kit, I would almost prefer to just give him the Armour of Destiny for a constant defense and keep him passive.

As another option, I considered giving him the Obsidian Lodestone and Dragonbane Gem for a 2+/4+ Ward against the most deadly magic spells. The Gem would give him near immunity to the most pressing concern for an armoured character - The Lore of Metal spells. The MR(3) is equivalent to a 4+ Ward amulet against almost anything he's going to come across (The aforementioned Lore of Death spells/various magic templates) in addition to protecting the entire Bodyguard unit against any Comets or Flame Storms dropped on them. How do you think that would work?

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]I was playing around with making the Stubborn Captasus as well, but opted to make him cause Terror. I am interested to see how he works with this build.

I'll let you know. Terror does look like an interesting option as well, but new and improved BSB's might lessen its impact. I do like the idea of not having to park my terror causing guy within 6" of an enemy to affect them.

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Good choices. The smaller footprint makes a big difference in your deployment, as you can easily hide them between two combat units. I would not bother with the musicians though

Actually the musicians are there from when I intended to run two large blocks of 20 Crossbowmen and needed swift reforms, which ended up being completely unfeasible. I was going to keep one large unit, but split it for the reasons you stated. Just kept the musicians out of habit, they should get dropped.

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]First of all, Duelists come in a starting group of 8, which will panic after losing 2 models (25%). But by increasing the size by 1, to 9, suddenly you need to lose 3. Increasing the size again to 10 doesn't give you any additional boost, and it's better to save the points and use them elsewhere.
Oh, and the Champion certainly, and musician probably, are wasted points.

Three units of 9 might work well. I kept them at 10 for two ranks of 5 in combat, but they aren't exactly close combat specialists and supporting attacks won't get the additional hand weapon attack from the Pistol. I thought the Champions had +1 BS, but I've just realized that Pistols aren't on the list for ranged weapons in our command units section; they're definitely useless. They'll likely get used for baiting, so I think keeping the Musicians is a good thing.

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]I am going to assume this is broken into 3 units of 5? Otherwise, it is a large, fairly expensive target.
Fast cav have really only one use in 8th for Dogs of War, and that is warmachine hunting.

I explained elsewhere that I intended to experiment with a large block of cavalry in an attempt to make use of disrupting enemy combat res. blocks. If it turns out to be a dismal failure as we might predict, they'll simply be exchanged for two units of 5, with the rest of the points going towards another Lvl 2 wizard or more Bodyguards or something.

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Seems pretty solid. At the end of the day, i don't think heavy armour helps these guys at all, but I keep paying for it, because I think it's neat

Exactly I use Teutogen Guard models with the hammers clipped and replaced with halberd heads. Wouldn't replace them for anything else in our list!

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I would split this into three units, two of 15 with flails, one of 30 with greatweapons. It gives your enemies more targets, and you more options.

That does seem a rather sensible switch, though I'd prefer to keep Flails even on the larger unit. It might make deployment a bit harder, but the extra opportunity to use the 15 man units as flankers and disrupters might remove the need to try out the Light Cavalry for that role. Good food for thought here.

(07-30-2010 12:39 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Although in the games I played, my Warmachines did all of nothing for me, I stand by them as good choices, and having two of each can only help! Remember that we also have the option of a completely legal, non RoR Giant, and 2x Cannon, 2x Hot Pot and 1xGiant fit right into the % cap.

I don't have a model for it, and I don't like giants for whatever reason I did like having the Maneaters, though, and getting a giant might be just the response to that loss. Eh, would rather keep the army fluffier looking without it, as it would kind of stick out.

(07-30-2010 04:42 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]It's possible that my instinct to put him on a Pegasus is a holdover from 7th Ed., but I'm mainly concerned about making sure he has LoS for spells, not necessarily just range;

I have found that with the introduction of the 'I can see it, I can hit it' system, LOS is fairly easy to come by for casters. Combined with the fact that magic doesn't suffer from the normal negatives of enemies which are screened being harder to hit, and I think most of the time a guy on the ground can see just fine.

(07-30-2010 04:42 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]The 5+ Ward is shaky defense against cannons like you said. I would also prefer to give him a Power Stone rather than a Ward save to boost my magic phase, but I think I would still need to keep the save even if I moved him into a unit for any sniping magic directed against him, as a Lvl 4 wizard is a perfect assassination target.

My defence on him has so far been that he has 3 wounds, and a 'look out sir', but I understand the concern about being assassinated. The best defence, in my opinion, is to keep him with a unit that can hide him, and be ready to jump ship if an enemy is coming straight at him!

(07-30-2010 04:42 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]I have always been wary of one-use-only defensive items that shatter after the first hit.

Are there any items you would recommend pairing with the Opal Amulet? Or do you just use it by itself for some points shaving? If I was going to ditch the 'character defense' kit, I would almost prefer to just give him the Armour of Destiny for a constant defense and keep him passive.

Well, in the course of a game, you are normally going to come across that ONE time where you need your Paymaster to survive, and as he only has 3 wounds, that 4++ seems to work out fairly well for him.
Personally, my favourite load out for him so far is the Charmed Shield (it works on gunfire, cannonballs, most magic, and hand to hand), the Opal Amulet, and the Potion of Toughness. That way, when the turn comes you think you will be in danger, you are T7, when something goes wrong (and it will) you ignore the first hit, and as a last resort, you get a 50/50 to save. So far I have had my Paymaster on a horse, riding with the bodyguard, even though it removes his Look Out Sir, as the Shield can absorb the first character sniping cannonball directed towards him, but I don't know if I will continue to do that.
Additionally, in my opinion, forcing characters to pass a Ld test, which most have a better than 50/50 of pulling off before any other considerations, as your main form of defence seems like suicide.

(07-30-2010 04:42 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]Actually the musicians are there from when I intended to run two large blocks of 20 Crossbowmen and needed swift reforms, which ended up being completely unfeasible. I was going to keep one large unit, but split it for the reasons you stated.

i played around with the Swift Reform as well, but as far as I can tell, even after a Swift reform, crossbows still cannot fire, as they still count as moving. I do however want to field a 20 man unit at some point, since I did it in last edition and it worked very well for me.


My only other thought is, as always, that the Paymasters Guard could have a few models cut, down to 15. You don't need the ranks for Steadfast, as you are stubborn already, and you don't really need them for Combat Res, since you are going to have to use them in conjunction with another unit to win any serious combats, and the 50 points could really help out somewhere else.
Lastly, as a note about Paymasters and their Guard, don't fall into the trap of thinking that the Paymaster is somehow stuck with the guard, or that Stubborn will see you through. Sometimes the best thing to do when someone is manuevering a monster/combat unit/suspicious block of troops towards the Paymaster and his unit, is to cut your losses and run your Paymaster out of there!

(07-30-2010 09:28 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]I have found that with the introduction of the 'I can see it, I can hit it' system, LOS is fairly easy to come by for casters.

Oy, good point. One could mount a wizard on a horse, stick him in a rank and file unit, and pretty much toss Fireballs right past whatever screening units are in his way. I think I'll do that.

(07-30-2010 09:28 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, my favourite load out for him so far is the Charmed Shield (it works on gunfire, cannonballs, most magic, and hand to hand), the Opal Amulet, and the Potion of Toughness.

I see how that could work well. And it only uses items that really aren't going to be in high demand amongst your other, more dedicated characters. Though, I'm really quite attached to my MR(3) idea now

(07-30-2010 09:28 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Additionally, in my opinion, forcing characters to pass a Ld test, which most have a better than 50/50 of pulling off before any other considerations, as your main form of defence seems like suicide.

It did seem like one of those doomed-from-the-start ideas, didn't it? It was pretty unanimously disliked from the looks of it. Still I'll give it a single run once I start playing games just for fun.

(07-30-2010 09:28 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]My only other thought is, as always, that the Paymasters Guard could have a few models cut, down to 15. You don't need the ranks for Steadfast, as you are stubborn already, and you don't really need them for Combat Res, since you are going to have to use them in conjunction with another unit to win any serious combats

This is also somewhat the Dark Elf Blackguard problem. They're already stubborn, so ranks aren't needed there, but if your opponent claims steadfast then it doesn't matter how thoroughly you've won combat. Really don't know what to make of it.

Overall, if I drop 5 Light Cavalry and split the rest into two groups, drop 5 Bodyguards, drop the Lvl 4's Pegasus, remove some key champions and musicians, shave the Duelists down, there should be room for a Lvl 2 and a third Duelist unit.

For magic, which I haven't really said anything about yet, I thought of a few things. Since a Lvl 4 with the Book of Ashur is so vulnerable to miscasts, Lore of Life seems an obvious choice. It's well rounded with nice augments, an ability to top off any wounds the Paymaster or Captasus take, and, best of all, shrugs off miscasts on a 2+ with an easily casted RiP spell. With a Lvl 2 hanging around, he could take the Lore of Metal or Death for those all-important character sniping spells.

Think that about wraps this up. Until the first battle, of course!

Remember though that a character on a horse in a unit of infantry will not get a Look Out Sir.

Additionally, for your level 2, I would suggest Lore of Fire, for some flat out damage dealing potential, as well as the Burning Ring of Ruin, to draw out dispell dice.