Dogs of War

So I've been writing myself up an army list for the new edition with Dogs of War, and I've come to a very distinct problem when it comes to the use of Norse Marauders in the newest edition.

In the past, I have always used marauders as a rank and file, combat res. generating unit. Sounds strange, I know. I used to use Empire Swordsmen as their models, equipping them with only their hand weapons and shields. Fluffwise, I always thought of them as impetuous young warriors out to prove themselves in battle, skilled but reckless, much like the Knights-Errant from Brettonia (or whichever units of theirs sometimes charge on their own).

In 7th, I merely screened them with fast cav or with skirmishers to essentially cage them until I was ready to let them charge. In combat, their 4+ save with HW+Shield gave them reasonable protection and Frenzy meant they were dealing out a respectable amount of wounds for a human combat res. unit with full command.

In 8th, this is pretty much scrapped. Charge ranges are utterly random, meaning screening is really only viable for blocking ranged attacks. Frenzy will trigger anytime within 16 inches, likely leading to many failed charges against a skilled opponent. And any unit you use to 'cage' the Marauders is now susceptible to the longer charges of your opponent and probably will end up charged itself. So getting pulled into unfavourable combat is going to be inevitable.

Not only is the Parry bonus worse than it used to be, but units with Frenzy cannot even make use of it. Their ability to survive in prolonged combat swiftly diminished when combined with the new stepping up and supporting attacks. When played right, you could charge them in, taking in return only one or two casualties at most (from other regular infantry), then break and pursue your enemy after an assisted flank charge from even mere Duelists. In 8th, however, their T3 and 5+ AS will ensure a significant casualty rate from even two ranks of WS3 or 4 S3 infantry, nonetheless S4.

What good is a combat res. unit that loses a quarter of it's power capacity every time it enters combat?

Naturally, I began to consider alternate (and probably the most common) roles for my marauders. In 7th, Great Weapons were always a good choice. With a champion, you tossed 11 S5 hits out, which could end even a dragon, leaving basically no one to attack back. If you got charged, well, those were the risks of having Great Weapons. They shouldn't be getting charged.

In 8th, they took away the greatest advantage of Great Weapons - charging. Since it doesn't matter whether you charged or not, GW's strike last. No longer can you dish out a torrent of high strength attacks, leaving no survivors. These furious, frothing at the mouth warriors will charge their opponent, then pause and (In a posh British accent if possible) say "Excuse me, good sirs. Please, after you!" and let themselves get hewed down by Goblin Spearmen before raising an arm in protest.

So Flails, perhaps. Generally, you want to keep that S5 for as long as possible, but Marauders have a nice above average Initiative begging to be used by this new 100% Initiative based combat. Again, we run into another 8th Edition wrench ready to throw itself into our carefully laid out Marauder machinery. They somehow managed to make Initiative simultaneously important and worthless. You'll strike first and kill 7 or 8 guys, but they'll just jump right up and send a whole rank of your Marauders to an early grave. The situation is not that different from using GW's.

So here I am at one possibility. If I still want to use them for anything other than small units of harassers, they pretty much half to be run as a large block equipped with Flails. I think the Flails have an edge vs GW's as GW's are going to be highly susceptible to flank charges by skirmishers or cavalry. With GW's, the Marauders will still kill them, but they'll be murdered in return. With Flails, provided there are only about 10 men in the attacking unit, you'll strike hopefully first with their Initiative and leave no attacks back.

I just cannot see a way to field these guys without them losing nearly a quarter (or more!) of their strength every time they get into a combat, short of some fancy magicking or just using plain overwhelming force. Must we resign ourselves to using Marauders as simple leg-borne one-shot ballistic missiles, annihilating the enemy with a charge once then being useless for the rest of the game? Any ideas from veteran mercenary generals here?

tl;dr version:
I can't figure out how to use Norse Marauders in 8th. How would you do it?

They look cool, so field them anyway?

Can't say I have much experience with 8th ed, having only played one game, but I still think they can be viable. Sure, they are overpriced, but at least they always get to strike back now, meaning it doesn't matter as much if they get charged due to a failed charge. With a big enough unit (20+), you will get 15 attacks back with S5, which should hopefully be able to deal with most basic infantry units.
8th ed is all about big units, baby!

10 wide (horde), 3-4 deep and you will be dealing out a bucketload of attacks at your desired strength (depending on what equip you go for), that unit will break almost anything in a front on front fight (except maybe the really elite units like White Lions etc..).

I'll still field them. Just like I'll still use pikes.

But in 7th there was always a way for a good general to use tactics and, you know, not let half of his men die every battle. Who would want to work for that mercenary general? It just seems like 8th is making it impossible to keep melee units at near full strength by forcing us to take casualties no matter what. Units don't even give Victory Points unless they've been completely destroyed now; the designers knew full well what they were doing.

Edit: Rumor, why didn't I think about Horde formation? That actually might be a really good idea. They lose a little of their Frenzy potency since supporting attacks are capped at one per model, but engage a unit that you've whittled down a little with crossbows or magic and they just might wipe them out completely. If you can keep them at a full three ranks until they engage the enemy, they'll have 29 S5 attacks coming down on whatever poor saps got in their way. I'll have to think about that.

Well, they've increased the number of lads in each unit - so they've had to kill afew more in order to keep balance!

I didn't played 8th and for what I've read, I'm not. But please, don't misunderstand me - I'll read any posts and try it for myself later.

I used the Marauding Horde style to very good effect against the Skaven. I unfortunately got locked into a combat that was unbreakable, but had it down in three combat rounds. It was bloody. If you give them enough size, so they still get the three ranks, they will have a good time in their response.

My Rath Mob is truly a mob now, it's all about rank and file.

(07-29-2010 07:25 AM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]It just seems like 8th is making it impossible to keep melee units at near full strength by forcing us to take casualties no matter what.

Who would have thought, if you send men to battle, not all of them will come back?

Keeping Marauders 'caged' in from charging has in fact never been easier, though you make it sound as if it has gotten far more difficult.

Don't want to charge? Pass a Leadership test. With a base Ld of 8, higher than human average, Marauders are fairly controllable. Add in the fact that you could be using a Ld9 general, or, far more likely, be able to re-roll that leadership check because you are within range of the Paymaster, and failing is actually not that common.

As for Great Weapons and striking last, in 7th, you got the charge off and won, or got charged and lost. In 8th, you will do equally well either way, because as long as the models remain, you get to attack back. So far my Great Weapon armed Marauders, which I run in three ranks of five (3x5), have done very well, generally killing about twice as much as they lose.

That being said, as initiative can be a big boost, I am starting to think it would be better to make use of the Marauders I4 and equip them with flails. This would also make the unit cheaper, which is always a plus.

(07-29-2010 08:55 AM)The Besieger Wrote: [ -> ]Well, they've increased the number of lads in each unit - so they've had to kill afew more in order to keep balance!

I didn't played 8th and for what I've read, I'm not. But please, don't misunderstand me - I'll read any posts and try it for myself later.

Yes, one thing you have to consider when planning for 8th is that you'll find more blocks of 25 or 30 men amongst your opponent's army as well, which is going to even out any larger blocks you bring.

I'm not liking the looks of 8th, either, but no one's going to play 7th now at my local GW!

(07-29-2010 10:00 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Who would have thought, if you send men to battle, not all of them will come back?

Obviously I don't expect my army to be untouched, but 8th is looking to be a game filled entirely of Pyrrhic victories. Sure, you 'win' a battle, with only a small fraction of your original force left. In 7th, you could use proper charges and flanks to overwhelm your opponent and minimize losses. In 8th, you have to literally kill them to the last man otherwise they fight back like nothing happened.

(07-29-2010 10:00 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]Keeping Marauders 'caged' in from charging has in fact never been easier, though you make it sound as if it has gotten far more difficult.

That was more a general comment about screening. If the enemies can charge further, then your screening unit is vulnerable much earlier. But yes, the new BSB reroll system will make it easier to resist charging. Just don't underestimate your opponents. I've been using Witch Elves for years with my Dark Elf army. Even using every safeguard you can think of some general will eventually come along and out-think your Frenzy strategy, and one failed charge will ruin your army's day. It's a little easier for someone to trigger Frenzy now, even if you have a better chance of restraining.

(07-29-2010 10:00 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]As for Great Weapons and striking last, in 7th, you got the charge off and won, or got charged and lost. In 8th, you will do equally well either way, because as long as the models remain, you get to attack back.

Which is kind of my problem here. Wasn't the whole charge system supposed to reward superior tactics? 'Equally well' means I'm still losing 5 guys or so every round of combat. Regardless of whether I'm killing twice that amount, they need to still be combat ready for the next unit that undoubtedly comes their way.

(07-29-2010 10:00 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]That being said, as initiative can be a big boost, I am starting to think it would be better to make use of the Marauders I4 and equip them with flails.

That was pretty much my conclusion as well. Woe betide any cavalry that try to flank them.

Hand Weapon and Shield are definately not the way to go anymore. Which is sad that I converted up a full unit of Bearmen for retirement (Ok, my entire army is being retired while I start a new one anyway, but that's beside the point!).

Great Weapons or Flails are the way to go, and only go Flails if you think you will be able to beat them in the first round, or don't need them in the 2nd round... Great Weapons may go last, but who cares if you've got bodies to back them up.

Personally I reckon Great Weapons will come out favourite. As Flails will only take a steadfast unit to potentially ruin marauders day (steadfast, get slammed in the flank, sad marauders who are now only strength 3).

But at the end of the day, Dwarves may be better overall anyway. They lack the frenzy to give more attacks, but are hardy in their toughness 4 and leadership 9 and only slightly slower. They an get heavy armour as well if you want, although they're starting to cost a bit.

I would go with flails in any unit with 15 or less, and Great Weapons for anything larger. The different weapons and unit sizes give them distinct roles, being of course that units with flails can quickly overwhelm basic units which you can count on to break (as you can kill enough of them to remove their Steadfast), whereas units with Great Weapons can grind larger or Steadfast/unbreakable units down.

I've got to agree with the 'pro' great weapon crowd here. When I first read the INI rumour I thought my dwarves were screwed. But after quite a few games I've found myself loving my GW warriors (something I never fielded in 7th). I've also shrugged off armour as much as possible. Armour saves are worthless in 8th then there were in 7th, and that's saying someing! So rather then pay the points for it (ie shield) invest in S. So for either volumn of attacks or high strenght attacks. I love the gw high strength = stuff is going to die. SO rather then trying to keep your guys alive, make sure that they will kill stuff. Remember this game doesn't favor defensive play anymore, once you get that 8th ed becomes a lot of fun.