Dogs of War

In the new 8th Edition rules, anyone who has Always Strikes First also rerolls misses in combat against anyone whose Initiative they match or beat.

Since in the first round of combat Pikemen always strike first against enemies engaged to their front, would this mean that they'd be eligible to reroll misses as well?

I understand that the wording in the special rules for Pikes would leave this a little ambiguous, as they don't specifically mention "Always Strikes First" as a capitalized, bold letter rule, but this is much like the old "Additional Hand Weapon" debate of old. It would be my opinion, if asked, that they'd benefit from rerolls against anyone with 3 Initiative or lower on the first round, but I wanted to know what all the other Dogs of War veterans thought about it.

If they do, then they're even closer to actually being worth 11 points (Though still not quite there) with the new fighting in multiple ranks, horde, stepping up, steadfast, and supporting attacks rules. And it would certainly open up a new can of worms when it comes to combinatory tactics (i.e. Lowering an enemy's elite infantry block WS to 1 via spells, charging a fear causing unit into the enemy to first lower their WS thereby granting your pikemen rerolls, etc...)

Edit: I didn't spot any discussion of the sort in the other 8th Ed. threads, pardon me if I missed it.

The wording doesn't give them the ASf rules so they wouldn't benefit I'm afraid. Also, how would WS 1 on the enemy help you re-roll hits?

(07-23-2010 08:02 AM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: [ -> ]The wording doesn't give them the ASf rules so they wouldn't benefit I'm afraid. Also, how would WS 1 on the enemy help you re-roll hits?

I think that they do get the ASF rule in 1st round of cambat when they were charged. I dont have the rules with me but essencially it ststes that they always strike first unless the opponent has the ASF as a special rule. (paraphrasing here)

To the second point, -- yes they would reroll hits on people with an Initiative equal to or lower then theirs.

I do not use pikes or plan on using them any time soon so I do not have a vested interest. Although this concept may peek my interest.

I think in a friendly game pikes would get that rule for the first turn there charged as unfortunatly we have to work with old rules and if its a friendly game you would hope your opponent will understand that but maybe that's just my group of gamer friends.

(07-23-2010 11:09 AM)tarastop Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2010 08:02 AM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: [ -> ]The wording doesn't give them the ASf rules so they wouldn't benefit I'm afraid. Also, how would WS 1 on the enemy help you re-roll hits?

I think that they do get the ASF rule in 1st round of cambat when they were charged. I dont have the rules with me but essencially it ststes that they always strike first unless the opponent has the ASF as a special rule. (paraphrasing here)

Afraid not, the PDF only says that they strike first, not that they have the Always Strike First rule. This is because Always Strikes First wasn't introduced until 7th ed in 2006, whereas the dogs of war pdf was last updated in 2004...

If you read closely, it says "Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or magic, will still strike before pike-armed models."

Not once does it actually mention Always Strikes First, because that did not exist as a rule back then, although there was a few items which essentially gave the wearer that rule, those are the ones the pdf are referring too. That said, Pikemen would not get the re-roll from either the wording or fluff-wise; ASF re-roll to hit is described as the warrior being so fast the opponent can't parry, whereas pikes are just long spears that reach the opponent before they reach him.

(07-23-2010 02:29 PM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: [ -> ]Afraid not, the PDF only says that they strike first, not that they have the Always Strike First rule. This is because Always Strikes First wasn't introduced until 7th ed in 2006, whereas the dogs of war pdf was last updated in 2004...

If you read closely, it says "Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or magic, will still strike before pike-armed models."

Not once does it actually mention Always Strikes First, because that did not exist as a rule back then, although there was a few items which essentially gave the wearer that rule, those are the ones the pdf are referring too. That said, Pikemen would not get the re-roll from either the wording or fluff-wise; ASF re-roll to hit is described as the warrior being so fast the opponent can't parry, whereas pikes are just long spears that reach the opponent before they reach him.

Well, I finally found the PDF (I'm out of town and away from my Chronicles book), and the rules for pikes state "Always strikes first in the initial round of close combat..." and that any enemy unit entitled to strike first due to special rules strikes before them. Of course, it does give the caveat that the "special rules" may only be used against enemies to their front.

However, I don't see why this would make their "Always strikes first" rule any different than anyone else's. Kind of like Dryad ward saves that are negated by magical attacks. They are still ward saves in all regards, and can be modified by any item that affects ward saves. They don't become some special "Dryad Ward Save" that behaves differently from, say, a ward save granted by an Amulet of Protection. Therefor it looks like the rules for the pikes essentially say that they Always Strike First, but lose the ability after their first round of combat, facing an enemy who also has ASF, or against enemies to their flank or rear. The rules even refer to their ASF, fighting in four ranks, requiring two hands, etc, as plural "special rules".

The 8th Edition rulebook already includes a vast amount of cases where old rules are converted to new ones without specific mention. For instance, "Fights in X ranks" rule (Which coincidentally means that our Pikemen fight in 5 ranks regularly due to supporting attacks), Regeneration (Old books where there is no "4+/5+/etc" printed after it are not useless), Swiftstride (or whatever they call being unimpeded by specific terrain), and others. I'd root them all out, but don't have the book with me.

As for fluff-wise, a warrior striking at high speeds is comparable to pikes being able to get multiple stab attempts in before the enemy reaches the front line. Thus, only striking first in the first round. It would hardly seem out of place.

You are correct, however, about Always Strikes First not being a real special rule back then, though I suspect that you would meet few people who wouldn't view "Always strikes first in the initial round of close combat..." as meaning that they Always Strike First during the first round. After all, Dark Elf Assassins, Skaven Assassins, that ASF Dwarf Rune, and other items that had nearly identical rules have all been simplified to the new special rules upon converting to 7th/8th Ed.

Unfortunately, there is likely no chance that we'll ever get an FAQ to 100% resolve the issue as Games Workshop views us as some wearisome albatross. Then again, it's not like pikes are very good to begin with, so ultimately it's a rather moot point.

Well, Dryads ward save is part of their forest spirit rule, so it is actually different than a normal ward save. It can be interpreted as you want it to, just agree on it beforehand with your opponent. However, as it is written, they only get to strike first, not Always Strike First. If they had the Always Strike First rule, then they wouldn't strike after other units with the Always Strikes First rule (unless the opponent had higher Init.)

The pike rules clearly says: "Always strikes first in the initial round of close combat, even striking before enemies that have charged. Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or magic, will still strike before pike-armed models."

It does not mention them having ASF for any other purposes than that, however if it said: "Models armed with pikes has the Always Strikes First rule in the initial round of close combat" it would be an entirely different matter. Then the second line wouldn't be needed either, as they already have that special ability as any other opponent, HE would still strike first due to high Init though. But the fact of the matter is, they do not have ASF, they have their own separate rule for striking first, and therefore they would not be entitled to any re-rolls.
I'm a law student, I argue about stuff like this all the time

(07-23-2010 07:05 PM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a law student, I argue about stuff like this all the time

Oh, I hear you there. Next year I'm starting law school as well. Business law. Anyhoo, I've already conceded the fact that "Always Strikes First" as a special rule didn't exist back then. I'm just referencing the fact that in the past there have been many situations where similar leaps have been taken. It's kind of like common law. In the past, there were items that were "Additional Hand Weapons", some that were "additional hand weapons", and other cases where a model ended up with two copies of a regular "Hand Weapon". Yet, they all fell under the effects of the same rule.

It wouldn't be a huge leap to believe that a special rule with the same exact wording as a special rule in the Very Big Red Book would follow those mechanics. I only mentioned the Dryad's ward save because the "Forest Spirit" rule is similar to the "Pikes" rules in that they are both entries that grant a series of individual special rules (Ward saves/ItP vs Fighting in four ranks/Striking first) and then give situations in which they don't benefit from them (Magical attacks vs After the first combat round). Essentialy, adding the clause "Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or magic, will still strike before pike-armed models." is no different than "However, this save cannot be used against magic attacks." It's still a ward save, and any rules governing ward saves would also affect them. Pikes still have a legitimate rule stating that a pike "Always strikes first", giving it a limiter doesn't make it any less of a rule.

Anyways, I'm not really here to argue right or wrong, I just wanted opinions on how others would view this on the tabletop. Looks like only two or so people have even looked at this thread, so it didn't do me much good As in all cases, it doesn't matter whether rules allow or disallow something if no one will play with you afterward!

Haha, true that. I'm not trying to start an interpret-war either, just saying my opinion on the matter. The real problem lies with GW not updating the pdf to give us a real answer, or even having an FAQ about it. But to go around that, I just use fan-made rules

Technically M4c is right. Pikes don't have ASF, but their own variant of it. So won't benefit from re-rolls unless your group FAQ's it otherwise (I know one of the tournaments in Aus did FAQ Pikes to have ASF).

Logically, it kinda makes sense that Pikes should have a special variant anyway. Pikes are big long cumbersome weapons. Being quick isn't really going to make you hit more. So as much as it's a bit of a let down (Speed of light, boosting your init and weaponskill to 10 would be very awesome on Pikes), gotta go with what's written.