Righty, I've only played 1 game of 8th so far and I haven't read the whole rulebook myself, we used a friend's copy so I'm relying on his having read it correctly. But assuming he did, magic seems to be quite buggered.
The game was 1500 points, Orcs (him) versus Dogs (me). I had a level 4 Wizard Lord on pegasus and 2 level 2s on foot (lores were light for the lord, life and heavens for the 2s). He had a lvl 4 shaman on boar and a lvl 2 gobbo with a dispel scroll. And I barely squeezed a spell off in the entire game.
Can anyone clarify with me whether this is correct;
You roll a 2d6 for your power dice pool, with your opponent getting the higher of the 2 dice as their dispel pool. You and your opponent then roll a dice for each wizard, any 6s you add +1 dice to your power or dispel pools respectively.
This does seem to make any mroe magic-heavy forces very difficult, due to the inordinately high casting values of the new spells - few of them are less than a 10+, which with a level 2 you will need 3 dice to cast with any reliability even with the new rules. Also, the 2d6 seems to mean that more wizards just stretch your power pool further. On average you'll only ever have 3 more power dice than your opponent's dispel pool, and with the new rules that's basically one cast for the entire force...
Can anyone clarify if that analysis is anywhere near correct?
Your analysis seems quite correct.
(You did add your mage levels to the rolls, did you?)
As powerdice are capped at 12 you can easily end up with too many mages in your army.
On the other hand, the new spells have become quite deadly and seem to be worth the effort.
Also there is no limit to how many dice you can throw at spells I think (books upstairs), so feel free to throw a bunch of dice at the spells and like Niibl said, your level 4 gets +4 to his casting rolls so remember that for sure.
I did do the additions, yes. I think my friend said there was a 6 dice limit?
I suspect I'll be filling my hero slots out with combat more (or just buying more troops) in future then... and I may tend to leave my Wizard Lord at lvl3 not lvl4, too.
Oh, and are pegasi worth the points? I'll probably keep getting a wizard lord on one anyway just because it looks cool, but an opinion would be nice.
Yeah, looking at an mid-enhanced fireball spell, doing 2d6 at 36", at a measly cost of 10+? A 4th level wizard needs to just get a 6 in order to get that off.
Casters on Pegasus I don't think is worth it (although cool points for sure!) as much in the new edition, the ranges can be boosted pretty easily. ALTHOUGH getting him or her out of the way of allied units and his miscast templates might be a good idea.
It does seem more "fickle" though, if screw a spell up, that ends your magic phase completely.
Im looking forward to the new magic its one of the reasons that has got me back into WHFB.
I think the big difference now is that high level wizards are less of a necessity. I'd rather take 4 or 5 lvl 1's and 2's, mixing it up depending on whether I want a wide range of lores or need to get one particular spell (I'm currently running a level 2 and level 1 Lore of Life hoping to get Regeneration). With the new miscast rules and the power dice cap, I just don't see the advantage in putting more than 75 or 100 points into any one caster.
Yeah... which is pretty sad for me, since I have a pegasus sitting on my workbench waiting to have an enchantress sculpted onto its back, and now she's going to be all nerfdiddled.
Hell no, I took a level 2 butcher against my mates level 4 grey seer in a 1.5k game and got smoked in the magic phase, I didnt get off a spell in 4 turns (at which point I called it) and he got a couple through every turn, the extra to cast and dispel from the level is massive.
Level 4 with a bound spell or 2 is enough I reckon, cause then if you screw up a big spell you throw those dice at your bounds instead.
I don't really see the advantage to dispel from a lvl 4 since you can throw as many dice as you want at a dispel without fear of a miscast. Yeah, it's easier, I guess, but at a pretty hefty price in points.
He throws one dice at a bound spell, your instantly getting +4 on the dispel attempt so you can easily one die it, he rolls poorly and you can comfortably throw less dice, if he only has a level 2 then your getting +2 to every cast vs dispel attempt on even dice in the game (bar loosing concentration), think how many times you have missed dispelling something by 1 or 2!
My usual setup will be something like - Fighty Lord, Level 4 Caster Lord, BSB and possibly one more character to bump up magic or combat depending on the build of the army, but seriously thinking those 3 characters can cover all your bases (magic, leadership and combat) competantly if not spectacularly, which is when you add an extra hero or 2 to beef up what you want.
The setup with my armies will look something like -
Dogs of War - Merc General, Merc Wiz Lord, Paymaster, Captasus.
High Elves - Prince, Archmage, BSB
Ogres - Tyrant, Slaughtermaster, BSB and possibly a Bruiser on the carpet if the local metagame ends up being artillery heavy.
To be honest, I rarely miss a dispel by 1 or 2. If I've got a pool of dispel dice sitting in front of me, my opponents seem more likely to throw way more dice than they strictly need at a spell, so it becomes a matter of them throwing more than I could ever hope to dispel and wasting their power dice on one spell, or miscasting.
For the cost of two lords and two heroes minimum I'd much rather have a couple units of Marauders, especially with the new rules about fighting in ranks and stepping up. And putting all your eggs in one Level 4 basket is just begging for a bad miscast roll to ruin your day.
All your eggs? lol a human level 4 is dirt cheap
I am used to paying for a Slaughtermaster or Archmage!
Yeah, not really getting the magic hate. Seems to be a great system from what I can tell so far.
Now, I have seen people freaking out that there is 'no possible way' that their level 3 mage can cast a spell when their enemy has a level 4 one to dispel it, but, as with most gripes about the new edition, these seem to be pretty unfounded.
Additionally, the average number of dice you should generate a turn is, of course, 7. Now, if you have a level 2 mage, with two spells, you could throw 3 at one spell, and 4 at the other, giving you results of about 13 and 16, easily high enough to cast even most of the high level spells.
Quote:All your eggs? lol a human level 4 is dirt cheap I am used to paying for a Slaughtermaster or Archmage!
A naked level 4, even for Dogs of War, is more expensive than a block of 23 Marauders with great weapons or three units of 10 pistol duellists. It's simply not worth it most of the time with the new rules. And if it means all you've got for magic is one mage, that miscast table is going to do very unpleasant things to you.
(07-20-2010 11:52 AM)Gwyddyon Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:All your eggs? lol a human level 4 is dirt cheap I am used to paying for a Slaughtermaster or Archmage!
A naked level 4, even for Dogs of War, is more expensive than a block of 23 Marauders with great weapons or three units of 10 pistol duellists. It's simply not worth it most of the time with the new rules. And if it means all you've got for magic is one mage, that miscast table is going to do very unpleasant things to you.
And that level 4 is ALL you need for magical defence for the entire game, no more need for a scroll caddy AND an additional level 2 to be competetive, and takes points from our Lord selection, which is more or less unused, as opposed to our Heroes, which already loses the Paymasters points from its percentage.
Additon, the Miscast table is not going to be that rough to you. 4 Results have your wizard (most likely) taking a wound and more or less ending the phase, only one has a chance of killing the wizard, and that is only 1/2 the time (which means roughly 1/12 miscasts), and the other loses you levels, but cannot reduce a Level 4 to level 0.
Also, it's worth noting that in this edition, with no partial templates and monsters like the Hell Pit, a full unit of 20 marauders (or comparable) is not so difficult for enemies to deal with. One well placed mortar kills half your unit, and the remnants will get ground down by most core units. Additionally, one good spell has the same effect.
Quote:And that level 4 is ALL you need for magical defence for the entire game, no more need for a scroll caddy AND an additional level 2 to be competetive, and takes points from our Lord selection, which is more or less unused, as opposed to our Heroes, which already loses the Paymasters points from its percentage.
I've defended very easily with a single Lvl 2 against a Lvl 2 and Lvl 4. Did a few spells go through? Sure. It's about forcing your opponent to risk a miscast and deciding which spells you really need to block. But playing with the goal of completely shutting down your opponent's magic is just silly - the only way I see to do it is to spend a lot of points just to neutralize a magic phase that might end up with 2 power dice anyway.
Quote:Additon, the Miscast table is not going to be that rough to you. 4 Results have your wizard (most likely) taking a wound and more or less ending the phase, only one has a chance of killing the wizard, and that is only 1/2 the time (which means roughly 1/12 miscasts), and the other loses you levels, but cannot reduce a Level 4 to level 0.
Unless my math is off (which is certainly possible - huzzah for muscle relaxants!), 1/6 of the miscasts result in a 50/50 chance of your wizard dying, 1/4 result in a S10 hit under a template plus a loss of power dice, 1/6 result in loss of power dice (and worse if your wizard's in a unit for some reason), 1/4 cause a S6 hit and loss of power dice, and 1/6 reduce your level and ends your phase. So your wizard is taking damage 7/12 of the time on a miscast role unless you get lucky on the to wound roll on those S6 hits (not a chance I want to take with a T4 human), losing power dice 3/4 of the time, and losing at least one level 1/6 of the time. Call me crazy, but only 1/4 of those options (the ones that don't cause a wound or more) seem less than headache-inducing to me, unless I'm using Life with that wound regeneration ability. And the best case scenarios only work if you're keeping your mage well away from any friendly unit, which limits the effectiveness of your own magic.
Quote:Also, it's worth noting that in this edition, with no partial templates and monsters like the Hell Pit, a full unit of 20 marauders (or comparable) is not so difficult for enemies to deal with. One well placed mortar kills half your unit, and the remnants will get ground down by most core units. Additionally, one good spell has the same effect.
How is that any different from a Lvl 4? They aren't exactly immune to mortars either, which only reinforces my point. One lucky mortar shot or a round of special attention from a block of archers or crossbows and your magic phase suddenly gets very boring for the remainder of the game. That +4 to dispell isn't going to help very much when your ONLY mage is busy playing pincushion.
That single mortar shot needs to hit, then you need to fail a 2+ save in additon to any ward you may have. Not likely. Cannons are more apt to take you out, and even then, again, not likely.
Also, I have YET to see anyone with JUST a level 2 wizard aptly defend against a level 4 in this edition. Maybe a level 2 with a good scroll and a few lucky rolls...
Additionally, the loss of a wound on a 3 wound character from miscast isn't much of a negative. Hell, even a S10 hit to everyone in contact should normally only hit between 3 and 5 models in your unit.
Not taking a caster lord because it can miscast seems silly. Warmachines CAN misfire, but that doesn't mean you take nothing but crossbows, because eventually those warmachines are necessary.
Regardless, it most likely boils down to personal play style. I have spent the last two editions being magically defensive, running (in different armies) two level 2s, a single scroll caddy, or, in a ridiculously all or nothing army, no magic defence at all. I am incredibly happy that, in this edition, a single level 4 has so much sway, and 4 caster vampire armies or 23 power dice demons/dark elves have been so toned down.
(If anyone is wondering, taking on a Manfred vampire army with a level 1 and level 2 vamp, as well as a necro riding a corpse cart and carrying the book, with an army that has NO casters is NOT fun. It was a tie, but it was not fun.)
You maths is slightly off mate, there is 6 results yes, but the chances of rolling the worst one is far less than the moderate ones due to...what is it called again..the whole average dice roll on 2 dice being a 7...standard deviation or something like that (never did stats).
Last night played a 2400 point game, my Slaughtermaster vs his Grey Seer + Plague Priest (Level 1), and I managed to shut down most of his magic, I had to let through some which was a wither (on goblars!) and 2 chain lightnings (bye bye scraplauncher) but otherwise I was getting off a couple of my buff spells a turn which in the long run was the difference, had +1T and +1S buffs on my Ironguts, he could only get rid of one with his remaining dice....S7 block of 7 ironguts > doomwheel
this let me win a flank and eventually the game.
I still maintain a level 4 (or 3) is mandatory.
Quote:That single mortar shot needs to hit, then you need to fail a 2+ save in additon to any ward you may have. Not likely. Cannons are more apt to take you out, and even then, again, not likely.
I'm slow and I've never faced or played Empire - where does the 2+ save come from?
Quote:Also, I have YET to see anyone with JUST a level 2 wizard aptly defend against a level 4 in this edition. Maybe a level 2 with a good scroll and a few lucky rolls...
Well, I did it twice a few nights ago against HE and DE. Helped that in the first game his Lvl 4 lobotomized himself down to a 1 on the miscast table in Turn 3, I guess.
Quote:Additionally, the loss of a wound on a 3 wound character from miscast isn't much of a negative. Hell, even a S10 hit to everyone in contact should normally only hit between 3 and 5 models in your unit.
Not taking a caster lord because it can miscast seems silly. Warmachines CAN misfire, but that doesn't mean you take nothing but crossbows, because eventually those warmachines are necessary.
Regardless, it most likely boils down to personal play style. I have spent the last two editions being magically defensive, running (in different armies) two level 2s, a single scroll caddy, or, in a ridiculously all or nothing army, no magic defence at all. I am incredibly happy that, in this edition, a single level 4 has so much sway, and 4 caster vampire armies or 23 power dice demons/dark elves have been so toned down.
Sure, a lot of it is play style. It just seems to me that a lot of people are struggling to shed a 7th edition mindset when it comes to magic.
Quote:You maths is slightly off mate, there is 6 results yes, but the chances of rolling the worst one is far less than the moderate ones due to...what is it called again..the whole average dice roll on 2 dice being a 7...standard deviation or something like that (never did stats).
That's why I used the 2d6 probabilities.
Quote:Last night played a 2400 point game, my Slaughtermaster vs his Grey Seer + Plague Priest (Level 1), and I managed to shut down most of his magic, I had to let through some which was a wither (on goblars!) and 2 chain lightnings (bye bye scraplauncher) but otherwise I was getting off a couple of my buff spells a turn which in the long run was the difference, had +1T and +1S buffs on my Ironguts, he could only get rid of one with his remaining dice....S7 block of 7 ironguts > doomwheel this let me win a flank and eventually the game.
I still maintain a level 4 (or 3) is mandatory.
At what level would you say it's mandatory? 1000 pts? 2000? 2250?
The 2+ save I assume refers to Look out Sir.
Even then, Wizard Lords are toughness 4, so unless the centre of the template lands on him and he fails, he's still somewhat resistant to mortar shots.
I think it's the same as usual though for magic, except you can effectively go magic light nowdays as well.
Level 4 + Level 2 is what you get if you're going magic heavy. One caster failling doesn't shut down your complete magic phase. However, if you roll poorly on the winds, at least you have a level 4 to help get the spells cast.
Level 2 + Level 2 is a nice medium magic phase. Same deal as above, but you're not spending so many points in magic.
Single level 2, you can either use defensively or aggressively. Throw 6 dice at a spell and see what happens basically if you've got an important spell to cast or depending on how favourable the winds are.
No magic... plausible, but don't expect to stop much. You're basically relying on irresistable dispel. At the very least, it's more plausible than in 7th where you would get absolutely reemed if you relied on 2 dispel dice.
At 1000 points, I think it depends on the army. Dogs of War actually have the advantage of a cheap BSB, who can't get enthralled by all the shiny banners available (My Beastmen BSB comes in at 200 points, I can't afford another hero and have to use an expensive lord as my general). So you can take Paymaster and a Wizard if you want. Wizards can be nice at 1000 points because your opponent is either going to have something similar, or no wizards at all.
2000 points I expect people will start deciding whether they want to go magic heavy, medium, light. None is a bit risky, but just depends on if you can squeeze one in.
I know a level 4 HE Archmage is cheaper than 2x level 2, so you throw a bound spell (ruby ring or ring of fury) for loss of conc backup and some misscast protection and you have all ya magic needs sorted in one character, also place him in a unit of Phoenix guard with the MR2 banner and they have a 2+ save vs any magic damage inc misscasts I think.
(07-21-2010 05:35 AM)Rumor Wrote: [ -> ]I know a level 4 HE Archmage is cheaper than 2x level 2
Dogs aren't that far behind, and this is a big point. Two level 2 wizards will run you 190pts. One level 4 is 210. Only a 20 pt difference.
Now, the other MAJOR cost issue is that of percentages. When you consider that the army already MUST include a Paymaster, and that a captain on a pegasus is still almost a mandatory choice, you're running close to 300pts of heroes right there, which means you would be hard pressed to fit in those two level 2 wizards (assuming you gave them any gear) in anything under 2000pts.
On the other hand, Dogs more or less just DO NOT use up army composition points for Lord Choices, which means that 25% of your points allowance is just sitting there.
In the current edition, why not just take a level 3 wizard (no upgrade in level to 4) if you are planning on going magic light? At first the points difference between that and a level 2 seems pretty steep (about 80), but consider what you are getting out of it.
-Effectively a Book of Asher, which gives you the +1 to cast and dispell, and nearly makes up the points difference on its own.
-A 3 wound character with a higher toughness who is more resilient to both character hunting and miscasts
-A leadership 8 character(!). This is another part that cannot be overstated. In a generally low leadership army, having one more unit with a bump from 7 to 8 is big.
To me, it seems like the points are worth it to take a naked level 3 if you are going for defense, and the built in advantages leave you open to throw on some gear that otherwise might not have a place to go.
Quote:Now, the other MAJOR cost issue is that of percentages. When you consider that the army already MUST include a Paymaster, and that a captain on a pegasus is still almost a mandatory choice, you're running close to 300pts of heroes right there, which means you would be hard pressed to fit in those two level 2 wizards (assuming you gave them any gear) in anything under 2000pts.
A Paymaster and a Captasus is 155 points plus whatever equipment you want to give them. 300 pts. is hardly mandatory there, even if you assume a captain on pegasus is (which I'm also skeptical of). And, of course, you could take multiple level 2's and use the lord points for the flying general.
You could put your general on a pegasus and let him fly around the board, but I don't like just giving my opponent an easy way to get 10ovps for blowing my general away. If you are going to take a fighter general, it makes more sense to keep him near your battle line for the leadership bonus.
Any thoughts on the rest of my post?