Several times since 8th edition was announced/released, I've been hearing "pikes well and truly suck now"... "I would never take pikes"... "you have pikes in your army list? What the hell is wrong with you?"
Granted, 11 points for a guy in heavy armour is a bit much, but speaking as someone who constantly runs a bloc of 36 pikemen (or 2 bocs of 20 if i'm feeling frisky), I have to ask why so many people seem down so suddenly on our iconoclastic troop choice?
Suddenly is a bit of an understatement. Pikes haven't been good in a long time. 7th edition heralded a points decrease on infantry (or if no points decrease, made them better). Pikemen haven't had the luxory of seeing the boon of that points decrease.
They are quite literally worse off now though in 8th edition. Stepping up is a huge disadvantage to Pikemen. They are costed based on the fact that they kill stuff before they get to strike them. High Elves were also the same, but they at least get the benefit of re-rolling misses.
Basically, it doesn't matter how many Pikes kill, the enemy still hits back and hurts them bad.
Also, fighting in 2 ranks is a nerf to Pikemen. For Pikes to take advantage of this, they need to pay for another rank of fighters (Which aren't cheap). Everyone else benefits right out of the box. This is also means even more return attacks due to fighting in 2 ranks.
Basically, Pikes can't compete on a point for point basis with basically any infantry in the game. Your 36 Pikemen set upi back 360 points (more for heavy armour). I raise you basically 200-250 points of anything better than a Human, and they'll probably kill off Pikemen for 100 points less.
It's not that Pikemen are strictly bad, just overcosted. And in game of Fantasy, in an army that's basically made up of other armies core - we have to get as much out of our points as we can.
Ill still be taking a unit of pikemen in my new Dogs of War army for 8th just because it doesnt feel like a Dogs of War army withought them plus i just love the look of them but then iv always been more into having an army of figures i like.
I love the pike figures, Ricco's to be exact, and sometimes I break a unit of them out, but as has been said before, they cannot compete with any reasonable unit of their points costs. Many elite units of half their points cost will shred through Pikes.
What can pikes actually do in an army? They can have ranks to be stubborn, but so can Crossbows, with an equal survivability and leadership, and the crossbows are cheaper and will most likely have a greater during the game. They can theoretically deal with a large horde of weak enemies, but so can Norse, and they can also put a hurt on tougher troops.
I can certainly see what Someone2040 is saying, when compared to other units, the pikemen are over-costed, an empire spearman with the same statline costs approx half the cost of a pikeman (sure the spearmen only fight in 3 ranks and wear light armour, but they're MUCH cheaper), and high elf spearmen now fight in four ranks AND have a superior statline, all for about the same cost (or a bit less?) than our pikemen.
However, I do see your point Braden, when looking only at our army list, the pikemen are a pretty solid troop that fight in more ranks than most enemies, so they are worth taking, they just aren't as cost effective as other choices out there. They also work well as a psychological weapon, I know personally your 36 pike block scares the hell out of me
Well...my recent experience with pikes has been quite good:
Ive got 12 Alcatani Fellowship, 12 Leopard Company, and 28 ordinary pikemen. Theyve been suprisingly effective. The other day my leopard company went through 6 chaos ogres in one round of h2h....the Alcatani chaps took on a unit of chaos knights and a general, destroyed them in two rounds (with a little help addmittedly) and then atacked the flank of a 40+ strong marauder horde. And beat that too...
I think the small size of the unit helps: they look harmless but then they get on a flank and things get messy!
(08-06-2010 02:21 AM)Teiren Wrote: [ -> ]I know personally your 36 pike block scares the hell out of me
If you give it the Wailing Banner, then it litterally does.
1. Piked don't scare anyone who has played them before, or who can run some basic math during a game.
2. How, I ask, did you give your Pikemen a magic banner? Because the only official way i can see is through the use of special characters.
3. How many units can a block of pikes defeat that are even close to equal them in points? Try and name a couple.
4. Everyone has AMAZING stories of what their Pikes have done. Beaten Chaos Knights, defeated entire hordes of Saurus, ect. The fact is, despite well wishes and the occasional spectacular rolling, Pikes will not perform.
Lets consider that 36 man unit. With Heavy Armour and Command, they come out to what? The closer half of 400pts? Really? 400pts for one unit, of T3 troops, with 5+ saves, whose benefit is a lot of S3 attacks? Even within the Dogs of War list, there are vastly better choices. An equal number of Marauders with Flails, or even Great Weapons, would be more effective, if you were looking for a ranked unit. Heck, for that many points, you could get a ranked unit of Ogres.
If you have the models, and want to field them, that's awesome. But it's not worth pretending that they are somehow a good unit.
(08-06-2010 11:12 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]2. How, I ask, did you give your Pikemen a magic banner? Because the only official way i can see is through the use of special characters.
Borgio lets a unit of pikes take a magic standard of up to 50 points in value... which will buy you one Wailing Banner. It's worth it just for the laughs.
Yes Borgio will get you that Banner but they are still not an effective unit just very fluffy for a Dogs of War army . As stated before a big unit of Ogres as a MI unit or going horde with 12 ogres abd full command much better option . And Marauders as in horde units make them more viable than the points sink of a pike unit .
Marauders as a horde with great weapons is one of the best point for point units in the entirety of Warhammer, there are very few units of equal (or even more) points that can stand up to them.
And yeah, if you take one of the Special Characters then you can take a banner. And if you are going to do that, why not take Lorenzo and put him IN the pike unit, since he is a good fighter, adds +1 to the combat res, and negates attacks against himself and the unit. And then, for just the reasonable cost of a special character lord, an 11pt infantry block of atleast 25 models, and a magic banner, you get... A mediocre unit.
I've been thinking about 12 man units of pikes as the picket units in my deployment. Use them 3 wide and 4 deep, for 12 ASF attacks. The units aren't ment to survive the initial round of combat but to get their 12 attacks in to hopefully weeken the opponents main infantry line units, by knocking off a rank, before dieing.
With random charge distances they could also pull individual enemy units out of the line of battle by being successfully charged or by there being a failed charge. Hopefully exposing flanks that can be exploited.
If all goes to plan you have an enemy unit, with one less rank, standing in easy charge range of your army, in an unsupported position at the start of your turn.
A 12 man unit of pikes runs you what, about 120 pts?
Alright, lets take a real look at this tactic. You are going to take that unit, and bait an enemy unit, with the hope of either drawing it out of position by fleeing, then counter charging it, or having it hit you, so you can get the attacks on it, to hopefully reduce a rank.
Consider an alternative unit, namely, say, 10 Duelists with pistols, which run you only 90pts. You still have the exact same flee options, they cost 25% less, and what happens if you stand and fight?
Well, First, you get to shoot. This happens REGARDLESS of whether their charge actually gets off, so if you are hoping a failed random charge takes them out of position, this is a much better option for you. Now if they do get the charge off, you get 10 S4 shots on them, hitting on 5s or 6s, as opposed to 12 S3 attacks, hitting on 4s, but wait! If your enemy is I4 or lower, you ADDITIONALLY get 15 S3 attacks, MORE than the pikes would have delivered!
So, for 3/4s the cost, you get a vastly more effective unit, with more meta game options, with the exact same vulnerabilities (no ranks, cause panic, ect), and the trade off is... A larger footprint.
Now, with the removal of turning to face, and a general increase in the entire speed of the movement phase and your ability to reposition, as well as compacting shooting units (half width because of fire in two ranks), a smaller footprint does not seem to be worth the MASSIVE trade off in ability and options afforded to you by duelists.
Duellists are alot better in the situation you described, as Shane already explained, and to sacrifice an entire unit just to remove ONE rank of an enemy unit is no good idea for dogs of war, you could do that with skaven slaves...but not with your nice pikemen!
Another unit you could use instead would be a 14 man unit of crossbows. They come in for 112 points, and can shoot 14 str 4 shots every turn over a range of 30"! And if they're getting charged, you still get your stand'n'shoot, plus a few attacks in meele... And if nobody charges them, well, then you can shot the entire game!
So basically, if you are going to take pikes, take one big block 30+ and don't expect them to do much more than die. I have 30 Ricco's Republican Guard, and I'm not afraid to use them.
At least they are one of the best looking units in that role!
That is exactly how Pikemen are used, maximum attacks for their size, without going insanely overboard (ie, hording them, or doubling their size for 1/3 more attacks), and having ranks, to help them remain stubborn against cavalry and monsters, or giving them at least a chance against other infantry. In any other role, their is a better unit, that costs less.
And I also have 30 Ricco's, one of my favourite models in all of Warhammer.
Hmmm, I missed a little bit of context.
I want my army to advance. I've played the static style infantry army and I'm toying with its make up to make it more of an advance to contact infantry army.
Hence crossbows as the pickets wont be able to shoot since they will be moving.
I have 2 units of 21 pistol armed duelists (in 3 rows of 7) that advance with 2 galloper guns in support (left flank and right flank) as a main line and the 12 man pike units (in 4 rows of 3) probably about three or four of them spread spaced out across the front more than 6 inches away (panic reasons).
The small footprint of the pikeman allows the seven wide unit of duellist (when closed up to charge) to more easily manouver past them.
Duelist standing and shooting need a six to hit (its a rare for it to happen at short range) and pike have always strike first so get to go first no matter what the enemy's initiative.
All up its about 1000pts as the core of my force with some faster stuff like ogres or cavalry looking for flank charges to help out the duelist when they charge.
It seemed like a usable idea for pikes and worked okay in the two games so far (I just had some coordination issues due to it being a "cunning" new plan)
ha! Trying to get your 'cunning' new plans, or 'great new strategies', in my case, working is always hilariously difficult.
Seriously consider some numbers though. If you are trying to take the fight to a 'human' enemy, the basic 3's across the profile with a 5+ save, it's going to take 5+ attacks to put a guy down, meaning your unit of pikes kills what, 2 a turn? Against about the easiest thing they are going to fight, is that really worth it? It's not enough to minimize attacks back on you, and you neither beat steadfast (no ranks of your own) or have the ability to disrupt enemy ranks (no ranks of your own). So, I have to ask, what are you really hoping to do with them?
(08-30-2010 08:26 AM)Shane Wrote: [ -> ]ha! Trying to get your 'cunning' new plans, or 'great new strategies', in my case, working is always hilariously difficult.
Seriously consider some numbers though. ....................... So, I have to ask, what are you really hoping to do with them?
Use them is the short answer.
Oh why do the pikemen look so cool but suxs so much?
Reminds me of that quote about leaving a good looking corpse.
Here's my strategy for using Pikemen. Wait until you are playing a game with at least 3000pts/side, whether it is a 1v1 or team game, and THEN use them. At that point, there will be so much going on, and people will be breaking out some of the more ridiculous stuff, so it won't be SUCH a detriment.
Alternatively, you could just *slide* them on the board at the end of deployment without actually including them in your army. What? They're mercenaries! Traveling adventurers who go where the wind takes them...